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#422826 - 05/22/08 09:29 PM Flushing Line Extension
Bracamonte Offline
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In 1929 or 1939, there were plans to extend the Flushing line to northen Queens. Here's an info from nycsubway.org.

"Flushing Line Extension: This line would have been extended as subway along Roosevelt Avenue to 150th St., and then would have emerged and followed the LIRR Port Washington ROW to 221st St. and 38th Avenue. It would have been 3 tracks to 155th St., then 2 tracks. In addition, a two track line would have branched off at 147th St. and Roosevelt Avenue and run along 149th St. running as subway to 35th Avenue and then as elevated (if you know this area, you know it would be very different with an el along 149th St.!), to 11th Avenue, at which point it would turn and follow 11th Avenue to 122nd Street in College Point. These additions would thus provide service to Murray Hill, Auburnadale, Bayside, Whitestone and College Point."

I would like to hear your reactions to this and your imaginations of how the line would look like if the extension was approved back then.


Edited by Bracamonte (05/22/08 09:30 PM)

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#422870 - 05/23/08 12:36 AM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: Bracamonte]
sebbieprops Offline
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I have a proposal in mind for the extension of the (7), but it would continue on to Francis Lewis Boulevard instead of up to College Point.
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#422873 - 05/23/08 12:45 AM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: Bracamonte]
R-7 SEPTA Local Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Bracamonte
In 1929 or 1939, there were plans to extend the Flushing line to northen Queens. Here's an info from nycsubway.org.

"Flushing Line Extension: This line would have been extended as subway along Roosevelt Avenue to 150th St., and then would have emerged and followed the LIRR Port Washington ROW to 221st St. and 38th Avenue. It would have been 3 tracks to 155th St., then 2 tracks. In addition, a two track line would have branched off at 147th St. and Roosevelt Avenue and run along 149th St. running as subway to 35th Avenue and then as elevated (if you know this area, you know it would be very different with an el along 149th St.!), to 11th Avenue, at which point it would turn and follow 11th Avenue to 122nd Street in College Point. These additions would thus provide service to Murray Hill, Auburnadale, Bayside, Whitestone and College Point."

I would like to hear your reactions to this and your imaginations of how the line would look like if the extension was approved back then.


Being realistic a 'light rail' bulit along Northern Blvd between Queens Plaza/LIC area and Great Neck is more realistic than any eastbound #7 line extension ever been bulit. Donald Duck has a better chance of becoming President of the United States than the Queens NIMBYS ever agreeing to a Flushing line extension lol.
Sad but true

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#423876 - 05/29/08 02:08 AM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: R-7 SEPTA Local]
guypak Offline
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I don't like the extension going up 149th. That is just so weird. I mean if it was a monorail sort of thing like the AirTrain, it would look nice, but it would just be such a change to the area.

I think with today's use of the LIRR PW line, the 7 can't use it. So Sebbie's proposal is fine by me.
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#423891 - 05/29/08 12:01 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: guypak]
mta36 Offline
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Off topic

Is'nt there is queens a whole span of unused railroad tracks?

I remember when watching my family play football in forest hills there was a rail bed on top of a hill with tracks and third rail that was abandoned.

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#423905 - 05/29/08 01:45 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: mta36]
R-7 SEPTA Local Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mta36
Off topic

Is'nt there is queens a whole span of unused railroad tracks?

I remember when watching my family play football in forest hills there was a rail bed on top of a hill with tracks and third rail that was abandoned.


Yes Sir. Matter of fact the biggest i think is the old "Rockaway Beach' line in which the "A" Far Rockaway branch uses running between Cross Bay/Rock Blvd in Ozone Park and Beach 67th.
The Rockaway Beach line runs i think between the Rockaways and connects with the LIRR main line **just west of the LIRR Forest Hills local** station.

Another one i think runs parrell to the LIE highway too.
Maybe someone like Mike Gerald can give details of the old LIRR tracks no longer in use
.

Getting back to the Rock Beach line, Around 10 years ago, in 1998-99 when both the MTA and Port Authority was making a final decision for buliding what now called the "JFK airtrain' the other location to bulid it was the Rockaway Beach line.
The NIMBYS almost all of the homeowners livng near the Rock Beach tracks opposed it. So that reason the Airtrain runs along the Van Wyck.

I still feel the Rockaway Beach line could still be useful as at least a 'light rail' between Woodside and the Rockaways as a way to replace the Q-53 bus and even take overcrowding off the Q-11 Woodhaven Blvd line too.


Edited by R-7 SEPTA Local (05/29/08 01:48 PM)

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#467377 - 01/26/09 06:27 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: R-7 SEPTA Local]
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An extension would have to be subway from Main Street along Rooseuelt. They had plans back then.
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#494952 - 12/18/09 05:21 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: Bracamonte]
valeriaK Offline
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Having the extension that goes down 147th to 11th Avenue could make sense,providing service to Whitestone, but going parallel to the LIRR would not be neccessary, as the LIRR already does that. The one thing that would have to happen before any extension exists, is stronger rules against development of the area. Flushing is getting much too crowded as it is, so serious measures would have to be taken to make sure any new train line isn't an incentive to developers, but rather an added benefit to those who already live in Flushing, Whitestone, all the affected areas.

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#494953 - 12/18/09 06:20 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: EE Broadway Local]
CenSin Offline
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Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local
An extension would have to be subway from Main Street along Rooseuelt. They had plans back then.

It's a Fantasy Map based heavily on the second system, but I illustrated what such an extension would cover. Look at the (7) and (8) lines.
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#494954 - 12/18/09 06:34 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: valeriaK]
R160Etrain Offline
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Obivously the whole purpose of the extension is to allow the 7 to be more convient to riders who live in that area instead of having everyone travel to the Main st station. On average weekday the Main st gets 58,681. This is something I expect from Manhattan, as Main st has the ridership of a couple stations heck even more than the entire White Plains branch from 241 st all the way to E 180 st. An extension would have greatly helped instead of having to rely on buses after getting off Main st, it would have nice.

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#494958 - 12/18/09 08:10 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: R160Etrain]
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I'm assuming the plans were derailed (no pun intended) because of a lack of finances...is this true?
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#495016 - 12/20/09 02:52 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: RokuSix]
TwoTimer Offline
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Im surprised that fantasy map didnt have a (1) tube going to Staten Island lol. I like the idea that the 7 ends at Main St (along with the other Queens lines NOT going to the LI border as they do in that map). It provides a surburban feel to areas of the city, which would be missed otherwise (only Midwood and that small enclave near Forest Hills have that suburban feel AND are near subway lines). Don't think for an instant that the neighborhood would have looked exactly the same just with a few more underground stations and that structure.
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#495017 - 12/20/09 02:56 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: TwoTimer]
Grand Concourse Offline
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The 1 is IRT width and length. The SIRT is B division width, but can handle at most 4-car trains. They aren't compatable. And the SIRT is under FRA standards.
And honestly I don't think such a long subway tunnel is worth the cost as SI isn't exactly densely populated like Queens or Brooklyn are.
I know it's fantasy, but even they have limitations.


Edited by Grand Concourse (12/20/09 02:58 PM)

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#495024 - 12/20/09 04:07 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: Grand Concourse]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse
The 1 is IRT width and length. The SIRT is B division width, but can handle at most 4-car trains. They aren't compatable. And the SIRT is under FRA standards.
And honestly I don't think such a long subway tunnel is worth the cost as SI isn't exactly densely populated like Queens or Brooklyn are.
I know it's fantasy, but even they have limitations.


It would have happended if the IND second system became reality plus the C would have FINALLY served a purpose, plus not only does it provide access to Staten island it also gives Culver riders direct access to neighborhoods like Bay Ridge and to some degree dyker heights since under my plan there would have been transfer points at 44 st/Fort Hamilton Pkwy(transfer avaliable to the D/M trains) 62 st/Fort Hamilton Pkwy(transfer avaliable to the N train) and another transfer point at Bay Ridge Av/4 Avenue(transfer avaliable to the R. In case anything happened to the D/N the Fort Hamilton Branch can be used as an alternative, and it FINALLY would have given the Culver riders a real express.

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#495054 - 12/21/09 02:29 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: R160Etrain]
NX Sea Beach Express Offline
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Nice map. I noticed that you did not send a subway to LGA which would have been great. I recall my trips to Chicago where it was wonderful to get on the Blue Line in The Loop and get out of the train in the middle of the airport.

On topic now, speaking of extensions, Phase I of the 7 extension is completed, but I guess there is still no 10 Ave stop planned? Some extension to no where...
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#495116 - 12/23/09 07:12 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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Just for reference, the Staten Island since the 1970's has been using 63 R-44 type subway trains on its commuter railroad line. When heavy work is needed on those trains, that work is done at the Coney Island train shops. Yes, the SIRT is B division width, and its stations handle 4-car trains, and yes it it under FRA standards. However the SIR does not connect with any mainland railroad system.

In the 1915-20 time periods, both the B&O Railroad (the owner of the Staten Island Railway), and the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company begun talks to merge their operations, and to fund a tunnel to be built between Staten Island and Brooklyn. The tunnel openings near what is now the toll plaza of the Verrazano Narrows Bridge were planned to mesh with the construction of the BRT's new Brooklyn 4th Avenue subway at about 62nd Street in Brooklyn. However the failing fortunes of the BRT and the B&O transit company, political dealings of those in power, etc - all lead to the non-linkage of Staten Island with the rest of the city's mass transit systems. Of course, the bankruptcy of the BRT transit company lead to the birth of the Brooklyn Manhattan Transit Company, the BMT. The BMT simply did not have the funds to build the connection to/from Staten Island, in light of its other pressing financial issues.

The famed and planned IND Second System, at least on the drawing boards had plans to connect to/from Staten Island.

My point is that the idea of having a rail connection to/from Staten Island was not a far off fantasy during the days and times when mass transit was actually being built.

Mike

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#495122 - 12/23/09 08:35 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
checkmatechamp13 Offline
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Yeah, there is the Intrepid Museum 2 blocks down, and, according to this map http://www.rpa.org/pdf/RPA_tomorrows_transit.pdf on page 44, you see that there is a high population density. It is better to serve an already developed area rather than leave that area out and go to another area.
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#495123 - 12/23/09 08:39 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: TwoTimer]
checkmatechamp13 Offline
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''Im surprised that fantasy map didnt have a (1) tube going to Staten Island lol. I like the idea that the 7 ends at Main St (along with the other Queens lines NOT going to the LI border as they do in that map). It provides a surburban feel to areas of the city, which would be missed otherwise (only Midwood and that small enclave near Forest Hills have that suburban feel AND are near subway lines). Don't think for an instant that the neighborhood would have looked exactly the same just with a few more underground stations and that structure.''

I think that one of the lines should extend (I think that Hillside Avenue Line) because it could allow people from eastern Queens to travel faster. Also, all of the buses wouldn't have to end in downtown Jamaica, with all of the traffic. It could just be one line, not all of them, to create on hub in eastern Queens.


Edited by checkmatechamp13 (12/23/09 08:40 PM)
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#495215 - 12/27/09 01:24 AM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: ]
R445377 Offline
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It would definitely benefit me as I won't need to take that filthy N21 all the way to Flushing in order to get to Manhattan from Great Neck! If only it was extended to Bayside...
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#495478 - 01/05/10 11:18 AM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: R160Etrain]
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Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse
The 1 is IRT width and length. The SIRT is B division width, but can handle at most 4-car trains. They aren't compatable. And the SIRT is under FRA standards.
And honestly I don't think such a long subway tunnel is worth the cost as SI isn't exactly densely populated like Queens or Brooklyn are.
I know it's fantasy, but even they have limitations.


It would have happended if the IND second system became reality plus the C would have FINALLY served a purpose, plus not only does it provide access to Staten island it also gives Culver riders direct access to neighborhoods like Bay Ridge and to some degree dyker heights since under my plan there would have been transfer points at 44 st/Fort Hamilton Pkwy(transfer avaliable to the D/M trains) 62 st/Fort Hamilton Pkwy(transfer avaliable to the N train) and another transfer point at Bay Ridge Av/4 Avenue(transfer avaliable to the R. In case anything happened to the D/N the Fort Hamilton Branch can be used as an alternative, and it FINALLY would have given the Culver riders a real express.


The C does serve a purpose. It permits the A to run express, thus enabling the A provide faster service on its ridiculously long route.
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#495479 - 01/05/10 11:22 AM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: Grand Concourse]
NX Sea Beach Express Offline
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Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse
The 1 is IRT width and length. The SIRT is B division width, but can handle at most 4-car trains. They aren't compatable. And the SIRT is under FRA standards.
And honestly I don't think such a long subway tunnel is worth the cost as SI isn't exactly densely populated like Queens or Brooklyn are.
I know it's fantasy, but even they have limitations.


Plus SI does not want to be connected to rest of the city anyway. That's why, back in the '70s and '80s, people moved there..to 'get away from' the city.

From a fantasy perspective, yes, years ago I sketched out a system that had service via Brooklyn on ALL the main thoroughfares of SI. Fantasy it was, and I enjoyed it, realistic, well...that's why they call it fantasy.
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#495491 - 01/05/10 02:46 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: ]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: NX Sea Beach Express
Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse
The 1 is IRT width and length. The SIRT is B division width, but can handle at most 4-car trains. They aren't compatable. And the SIRT is under FRA standards.
And honestly I don't think such a long subway tunnel is worth the cost as SI isn't exactly densely populated like Queens or Brooklyn are.
I know it's fantasy, but even they have limitations.


Plus SI does not want to be connected to rest of the city anyway. That's why, back in the '70s and '80s, people moved there..to 'get away from' the city.

From a fantasy perspective, yes, years ago I sketched out a system that had service via Brooklyn on ALL the main thoroughfares of SI. Fantasy it was, and I enjoyed it, realistic, well...that's why they call it fantasy.


I dont know, a subway over there would get alot of SI'ers off the road and ease the traffic around there trying to get to the city.


Originally Posted By: checkmatechamp13
Yeah, there is the Intrepid Museum 2 blocks down, and, according to this map http://www.rpa.org/pdf/RPA_tomorrows_transit.pdf on page 44, you see that there is a high population density. It is better to serve an already developed area rather than leave that area out and go to another area.


While SI isnt densely populated as the other boroughs doesn't mean a subway there would be useless, it just means one line with efficient service of course will be enough to handle the borough.

487,407 being served by ONE subway line= one busy line

Plus it would increase the number of people using subway,etc, it would definitly ease traffic around there thats for sure.




Edited by R160Etrain (01/05/10 02:46 PM)

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#495492 - 01/05/10 04:43 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: ]
NX Sea Beach Express Offline
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Originally Posted By: checkmatechamp13
Yeah, there is the Intrepid Museum 2 blocks down, and, according to this map http://www.rpa.org/pdf/RPA_tomorrows_transit.pdf on page 44, you see that there is a high population density. It is better to serve an already developed area rather than leave that area out and go to another area.


In another time, the philosophy was build it and they will come. First came the subway, then came development. I believe that that model still works. For example, Pavonia Newport on the PATH. After the end of industry on the Jersey side of the Hudson, there was nothing, but thanks to PATH, redevelopment was centered around its stations serving as the anchor.
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#495531 - 01/07/10 01:54 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
R32_3348 Offline
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I'm neutral to an SI subway extension. If they were planning on building one from Manhattan all the way to SI back in the 1920s-1940s (I'm not too familiar with the plan) then it's not as far-fetched as one would think. Extending a subway line from Brooklyn would be rather out-of-the-way but could work to have increased connectivity throughout the city.

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#495584 - 01/08/10 11:35 PM Re: Flushing Line Extension [Re: R160Etrain]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Express buses are 'well used' because it offers riders a one seat ride to their destination as well as convenience. Otherwise there is the alternative to take buses to the SIRT to St. George for the Ferry to Lower Manhattan.

If you really want to get cars off the roads in Brooklyn, they should have the ferries allow cars on again. I know about the problems about the security checks, but it would at least cut down on car traffic in Brooklyn.

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