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#492764 - 09/29/09 07:39 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
TheGreatOne2k7 Offline
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<4> would have to be consistent in the AM and PM rush hours with the same stops

Currently now with GOS S/B <4> trains stop at Mosholu, while N/B <4> trains somehow skip it for some reason.

Technically there already is a <4> during the PM rush N/B 149, 161, 167, 180 (Burnside)

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#492767 - 09/29/09 09:51 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Considering that the SAS at this point is never going to come since it was recently pushed back to 2016, the <4> is going to be needed as soon as possible.
What difference is the <4> going to make if it still has to share the same track as the regular 4? All you are doing is splitting up service for the local and the express. Sure now riders below 149th will have a better chance to fit on the <4>, but you now reduce service for the riders north of 149th.

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#492776 - 09/30/09 03:20 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: Grand Concourse]
TwoTimer Offline
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There is no <4> in the PM rush, that's a train going to the yard after Burnside so it can be discharged without disrupting service. The only way to do that successfully is to run it up the middle after 167 (as not to bypass 161). This is similar to those <5> that only go to E180. Most Dyre <5> come in on the outside track anyway.

The runtime from Woodlawn to 149/GC is 19 minutes (often less duing the off-peak). That is almost identical to the runtime from Parkchester to 125 on the (6). That along with station setup is why there is no <4>. 161 is not an island plat (if it was maybe things would be different). Fordam and Moshulu/Bed Pk are heavy. In comparison, it takes 28 minutes to go up the Pehlam line (125-Pel), 26 for Dyre (Dyre-149), and 30 for White Plains (241-149).

As was stated earlier all because the track is there doesnt mean the service should exist. For those that think the <4> is gonna be an extra fleet of trains, with no service reduction for the (4) I have news for you. There are not enough trains for that. For those who are going to take half the (4) and make them <4>, now severe overcrowding will exist on the (4). The idea of having a <4> bypassing 161 so residents can avoid Yankee crowds is laughable. Can't fit everyone as is on the (4)

I know for most of you the idea of a <4> is to overtake the (4) that left in front of it. It won't, the run's too short. The switches are not set up right at the moment of Burnside to short turn (making that a day terminal aka Parkchester) either.

Over on the Pelham line, trains are staggered out of Pel/177 so headways in Manhattan are even, the Pelham train will arrive at 125 roughly 4 minutes in front of the 177 local. On the drawing board, the Pelham express is supposed to arrive at 177 right as the local is ready to leave so a connection can take place. Its 4 minutes quicker express from 177-125 then local, making the headway roughly even in Manhattan. Its a nearly perfect situation that cannot be replicated on the 4.
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#492784 - 09/30/09 11:45 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: TwoTimer]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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In actual practice on the Pelham Bay line, the #6 out of Parkchester usually/often/plenty of times leaves the platform when the #6 express has arrived at the Parkchester station in the downtown am rush hours, allowing riders a transfer. I have seen this myself.

The uptown direction, with the local and express service on the #6 in the Bronx is a bit less certain. Often the arriving local to Parkchester and the arriving express to Pelham Bay Park may or may not meet at Parkchester for a transfer. It all depends upon whether or not the situation with the layup tracks is helpful. Some times Parkchester trains are queued up for the terminate and relay operation except that there is a train on the middle track.

Sometimes it seems that certain transit fans would convert their own parents into an express train run just to see what would-could-should happen. (smile)

Mike

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#492796 - 09/30/09 05:29 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: MikeGerald45]
R160Etrain Offline
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Well the am <4> super express pilot program was a success, now they should implement it.

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#492809 - 09/30/09 09:40 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: MikeGerald45]
cotb16 Offline
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Originally Posted By: MikeGerald45
In actual practice on the Pelham Bay line, the #6 out of Parkchester usually/often/plenty of times leaves the platform when the #6 express has arrived at the Parkchester station in the downtown am rush hours, allowing riders a transfer. I have seen this myself.

The uptown direction, with the local and express service on the #6 in the Bronx is a bit less certain. Often the arriving local to Parkchester and the arriving express to Pelham Bay Park may or may not meet at Parkchester for a transfer. It all depends upon whether or not the situation with the layup tracks is helpful. Some times Parkchester trains are queued up for the terminate and relay operation except that there is a train on the middle track.

Sometimes it seems that certain transit fans would convert their own parents into an express train run just to see what would-could-should happen. (smile)

Mike


Most of the time, the uptown 6 local and express trains often meet in Hunts Point Av rather than Parkchester. This way, riders coming from the local stops between 3rd Av and Hunts Point can transfer to the 6 to Pelham bay Park. But the biggest benefit is for those transferring from the 6 express to the local to go to stops such as Whitlock, Elder, Morrison, and St. Lawrence.
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#492810 - 09/30/09 09:41 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
cotb16 Offline
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Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Well the am <4> super express pilot program was a success, now they should implement it.


They've been doing signal work on the (4) line during middays, requiring 4 trains to run express between 149th and Burnside in the uptown direction on certain days and in the downtown direction on others.
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#492811 - 09/30/09 09:50 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
Aman Offline
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Ditto, R160Etrain!!!!

its time to put an end to proponents of daytime local trains only in the Bronx. The 4 & 5 lines should also have it!

It's obvious that some poeple want to continue the status quo. If brooklyn & queens can have express service - the Bronx should too!

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#492830 - 10/01/09 12:54 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: Aman]
mta36 Offline
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the 4 train is CRUSHED at it's current state so those 4 train riders should just get over it ????? it is not fair for a MT eden rider going to work to maybe miss some trains due to over crowding.

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#492838 - 10/01/09 05:39 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: mta36]
Grand Concourse Offline
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If the 4 is crush load as it is, how is the <4> going to help? It seems more like they are taking away some local runs for the <4>. Even if the <4> are extra trains, you still create a back up of trains trying to fit into the tunnel to get into Manahttan.

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#492853 - 10/01/09 08:12 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: Grand Concourse]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse
If the 4 is crush load as it is, how is the <4> going to help? It seems more like they are taking away some local runs for the <4>. Even if the <4> are extra trains, you still create a back up of trains trying to fit into the tunnel to get into Manahttan.


Are you forgetting that jerome irders actually enjoyed having the <4>. And the whole purose of the <4> is so that riders in Manhattan can physically get on the train. Plus the emptier the train that faster it can go in out of the station.Plus the <4> ran every 15 mins so the (4) local did not a get a dramatic decrease in service.

Plus unlike the CPW and 7 Av lines the lexington av lines dont have the luxury having one or more lines terminate in manhattan(the 3 on the 7 Av, and the C,B(non rush hrs) on the cpw)
A <4> train is better than no <4>.

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#492863 - 10/02/09 12:55 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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The real purpose of the am <4> train is to provide some trains in the am rush hours that have space for riders at the congested stations. That is why the transit fan proposals concerning local stations to Burnside Avenue then express from there south-bound were never entertained in the planning stages. The basic idea was to re-distribute some of the passenger load so that there are a few trains that other folks further south of the line, in Manhattan say, can actually board the trains.

Mike

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#492870 - 10/02/09 05:26 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: MikeGerald45]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: MikeGerald45
The real purpose of the am <4> train is to provide some trains in the am rush hours that have space for riders at the congested stations. That is why the transit fan proposals concerning local stations to Burnside Avenue then express from there south-bound were never entertained in the planning stages. The basic idea was to re-distribute some of the passenger load so that there are a few trains that other folks further south of the line, in Manhattan say, can actually board the trains.

Mike


Exactly, agreed 100 %

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#492873 - 10/02/09 07:16 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
mta36 Offline
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ok but the issue is stations like 86th street. why cater to them when a rider @ 170th cannot board some trains the line is Crush load after burnside ave

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#492874 - 10/02/09 07:18 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: mta36]
mta36 Offline
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it also gives a rider at Mt eden / 176th the option of riding to burnside then back south VIA express jsut like 174th street on the D riders will travel north to catch the express

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#492877 - 10/03/09 02:48 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: mta36]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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There are times the populace makes a demand that has to be heard and responded to.

Someone asked why should the MTA cater to riders at East 86th Street and their ability to board the trains, compared to riders at a station like Mount Eden Avenue or West 170th Street who cannot board the very crowded trains.

The real world answer is that the MTA has to responded to both types of riders. Anyone with any political savvy would know that the answer would be that the MTA tries to respond to both kinds of riders with the resources that it has available.

It is a given that the Lexington Avenue line is the most crowded subway line in the city (followed by Queens Blvd). It is a given that there are only so many trains that can be packed on the tracks in a safe manner, that the signal system can allow. In this case that is a train every 2 minutes, or 30 trains an hour in each direction. A four track line running at 30 trains per hour can in theory supply 120 trains to meet the demand. However if the demand is greater than 120 trains, and it has been for years and decades - then the line is very over-crowded. Which is something that was said at the beginning of the paragraph.

As much as some transit fans love to tinker with rush hour express service, there is still that fact that the line can accommodate only a certain number of trains per hour - 30 trains - established in 1904 with the original subway. As the trains become ever more crowded there is a demand to DO SOMETHING!

As most transit fans know already know, in regards to Queens Blvd, when the stations become very crowded, dangerously crowded, that deaths have occurred because of the crowds which increased the demand to DO SOMETHING! In the case of Queens Blvd, the answer was the creation of the V-train, the attachment of the 63rd Street tunnel and a change to the F-train. Why? BECAUSE THE POPULACE SAID DO SOMETHING NOW! While some transit fans still bemoan the V-train, it is and remains an attempt to deal with the very crowded stations along its pathway.

One can only tinker with the express trains for only so long, until there is a realization that no matter how one tinkers with the express trains - the basic problem remains. The am rush hour #4 is an attempt to provide some less crowded trains for the riders entering the stations at say 86th Street, and further down the line.

For years, the TA and transit fan types tinkered with a few F-trains that started at 71st Avenue in Queens, as a way to provide some less crowded trains at the express stops. It really did not work then, and not might really work now. However a newly built pathway is years off.

Just my thoughts.
Mike

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#492878 - 10/03/09 09:26 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: MikeGerald45]
cotb16 Offline
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Originally Posted By: MikeGerald45
There are times the populace makes a demand that has to be heard and responded to.

Someone asked why should the MTA cater to riders at East 86th Street and their ability to board the trains, compared to riders at a station like Mount Eden Avenue or West 170th Street who cannot board the very crowded trains.

The real world answer is that the MTA has to responded to both types of riders. Anyone with any political savvy would know that the answer would be that the MTA tries to respond to both kinds of riders with the resources that it has available.

It is a given that the Lexington Avenue line is the most crowded subway line in the city (followed by Queens Blvd). It is a given that there are only so many trains that can be packed on the tracks in a safe manner, that the signal system can allow. In this case that is a train every 2 minutes, or 30 trains an hour in each direction. A four track line running at 30 trains per hour can in theory supply 120 trains to meet the demand. However if the demand is greater than 120 trains, and it has been for years and decades - then the line is very over-crowded. Which is something that was said at the beginning of the paragraph.

As much as some transit fans love to tinker with rush hour express service, there is still that fact that the line can accommodate only a certain number of trains per hour - 30 trains - established in 1904 with the original subway. As the trains become ever more crowded there is a demand to DO SOMETHING!

As most transit fans know already know, in regards to Queens Blvd, when the stations become very crowded, dangerously crowded, that deaths have occurred because of the crowds which increased the demand to DO SOMETHING! In the case of Queens Blvd, the answer was the creation of the V-train, the attachment of the 63rd Street tunnel and a change to the F-train. Why? BECAUSE THE POPULACE SAID DO SOMETHING NOW! While some transit fans still bemoan the V-train, it is and remains an attempt to deal with the very crowded stations along its pathway.

One can only tinker with the express trains for only so long, until there is a realization that no matter how one tinkers with the express trains - the basic problem remains. The am rush hour #4 is an attempt to provide some less crowded trains for the riders entering the stations at say 86th Street, and further down the line.

For years, the TA and transit fan types tinkered with a few F-trains that started at 71st Avenue in Queens, as a way to provide some less crowded trains at the express stops. It really did not work then, and not might really work now. However a newly built pathway is years off.

Just my thoughts.
Mike


And this is the same exact reason why some (1) trains are short-turning at 137th Street. The (1) is crush loaded between 116th St and Times Square. Those coming from Washington Heights, Inwood, Kingsbridge, Riverdale, and Yonkers can either take the (A) at 168th St or take a bus to the (A) line at 207th Street.
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#492885 - 10/03/09 05:51 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: cotb16]
R160Etrain Offline
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Since we are on the topic of the crowding on the lexington av lines. I have a question:

Does anyone even use the nereid bound <5> train in the am and pm rush because it seems that the 2 is preferred over the <5> on the white plains branch or is this assumption incorrect. Also does anyone even use the Dyre bound 5 train north of E180 st, is ever SRO going to Dyre and Nereid north of E 180?

I asking these questions because shouldnt the 5 have some space available for passengers in Manhattan when it arrives at 125 st?

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#492889 - 10/03/09 06:03 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
Forest Glen Offline
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It seems like on a Bronx bound 5 to Nereid it empties out at East 180 street. On the Dyre 5, ridership is moderate. The only really busy station is Gun Hill Road.
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#492903 - 10/04/09 09:09 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: Forest Glen]
R160Etrain Offline
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So during the am the nereid <5> and Dyre (5) are empty coming into E 180 st?

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#492906 - 10/04/09 03:55 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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No the trains are not "empty" as in devoid of people, but simply that there are somtimes seats available, or places for riders to stand. Often by the time the trains reach East 125th Street, it is standing room only, if not at a packed condition and one has to wait for the next train.

Sometimes, it seems that transit fans can not make a difference between and fully crush loaded no room to breath subway car, and a completely empty all seats available subway car - as if nothing in between could ever exist. There are degrees of fullness in passenger ridership - a nuance that is often missed.

Yes, north of East 180th Street, the White Plains branch has twice the ridership of the Dyre Avenue branch, but that is simply not the same as saying "no one rides the Dyre branch".

Mike

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#492907 - 10/04/09 04:23 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: MikeGerald45]
Grand Concourse Offline
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So basically you are saying you are in favor of the <4> then?

You know if riders like being able to actually get on an emptier train in Manhattan, then that's great for them. My only concern is that now Bronx riders lose a few trains so that the <4> can run into Manhattan. Because there is only so many trains that tunnel can accomodate. That's my point from the beginning being that I had my doubts about this <4> service.


Edited by Grand Concourse (10/04/09 04:25 PM)

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#492913 - 10/04/09 10:19 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: Grand Concourse]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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Just for reference the <4> consists of the following trains: the 7:15, 7:30, 7:45 and 8:00 trains that leave Woodlawn. All of the rest of the #4 trains make all stops in the Bronx. Contrary to most of the discussion, the <4> train consists of 4 and only 4 trains in the morning.

So yes, at those times - folks at the Bronx stations have a bit fewer trains than usual to board. This means that those Bronx riders have to crowd onto the existing trains, so that there are spaces on at least those 4 trains for riders further down the line.

Some transit fans would want to "refine" the express service, modify the express service, make it more like the #6 line in the Bronx, somehow turn Burnside Avenue into the Parkchester station, and somehow create a pm rush hour express service. However none of those ideas is an attempt to cope with the problem that the MTA was trying to address, which is the in-ability of riders along the Lexington Avenue portion of the line being actually able to board trains that have some degree of space for those riders.

If the TA had decided to run those same trains non-stop to 149th Street-Grand Concourse and south taking on passengers, Bronx riders would probably complain about a reduction in service. At least some Bronx riders have a chance to ride these trains.

Just some thoughts.
Mike

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#492929 - 10/05/09 10:13 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: MikeGerald45]
CenSin Offline
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Originally Posted By: MikeGerald45
Just for reference the <4> consists of the following trains: the 7:15, 7:30, 7:45 and 8:00 trains that leave Woodlawn. All of the rest of the #4 trains make all stops in the Bronx. Contrary to most of the discussion, the <4> train consists of 4 and only 4 trains in the morning.

So yes, at those times - folks at the Bronx stations have a bit fewer trains than usual to board. This means that those Bronx riders have to crowd onto the existing trains, so that there are spaces on at least those 4 trains for riders further down the line.

Some transit fans would want to "refine" the express service, modify the express service, make it more like the #6 line in the Bronx, somehow turn Burnside Avenue into the Parkchester station, and somehow create a pm rush hour express service. However none of those ideas is an attempt to cope with the problem that the MTA was trying to address, which is the in-ability of riders along the Lexington Avenue portion of the line being actually able to board trains that have some degree of space for those riders.

If the TA had decided to run those same trains non-stop to 149th Street-Grand Concourse and south taking on passengers, Bronx riders would probably complain about a reduction in service. At least some Bronx riders have a chance to ride these trains.

Just some thoughts.
Mike

Their press release seems to say the opposite based on my interpretation. Or maybe they already know the riders only care that they might get a faster ride and decided to omit the bit about giving some space to riders downstream:
"'By skipping nine stations, the Bronx Express 4 is expected to shave about 3.5 minutes off the 20 to 21 minutes scheduled running time between Woodlawn and 149th Street-Grand Concourse during the height of the a.m. peak. This is a significant time saving when you are headed out to work in the morning,' said IRT East Group General Manager Knights. 'This pilot will determine the feasibility of bringing Jerome Avenue service in line with the Concourse, White Plains Road and Pelham Bay corridors by offering an express service to morning commuters.'"

Press Release: MTA New York City Transit Pilots Bronx Express Service Along the Jerome Ave. Line
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#492930 - 10/05/09 11:19 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: CenSin]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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I understand what you are staying and what the press release says.

I believe it is a bit of marketing to offer the Bronx #4 riders an express service whose real purpose is to supply a few less crowded trains along the Lexington Avenue segment of the route. At the same time this express is offered, some Bronx riders do benefit from the service, increasing its support by the riding public. This helps to insulate the TA from any criticism of taking away Bronx #4 service.

I believe that if the goal was to supply a few less crowded trains for the Lexington Avenue segment, and TA decided to run these four trains passenger less and non-stop to say 125th Street, and then let the trains take on riders - some Bronx riders might complain about a reduction in service.

I understand that some folk would want to debate the above points, and that is fine. I also understand that some folk would want to change the #4 express service into something different. I also tend to want to look at the original problem that the TA was trying to work on, as a way of understanding.

Just my thoughts.
Mike

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