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#490382 - 08/07/09 03:27 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
R160Etrain Offline
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Also has crowding on the lexington av line rush hours gotten worse?

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#490453 - 08/09/09 10:19 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
RokuSix Offline


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There's a status quo that it follows, so not by much, R160.
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#490473 - 08/10/09 02:38 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: RokuSix]
R160Etrain Offline
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Alright, I guess crowding cant get any worse than it is right?

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#490481 - 08/10/09 05:13 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
RokuSix Offline


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Pretty much. This may be a farfetched theory, but perhaps crowding will alleviate. With the current economic system raising fares and rents along the East Side, perhaps there will be less people riding these lines in Manhattan.
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#490510 - 08/11/09 09:49 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: RokuSix]
R160Etrain Offline
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I wont be surprised if that happens, since 2009 is seeing a ridership decrease because of the economic crisis, this should help the 4/5/6. I've already heard the E is gaining more standing room and getting less crowded, maybe the same thing will happen to the L.


Edited by R160Etrain (08/11/09 09:50 AM)

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#491898 - 09/09/09 04:24 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
TwoTimer Offline
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On bypassing stations: the NYCT rule states that trains bypassing stations (express on the local or whatever) must leave at no more than 15 miles per hour (nothing said on how fast they may come in). Some motormen adhere to the rule, some do not. Even on Metro North or LIRR (don't have to go as far away as Tokyo), trains are hurtling past "local stops", providing express service to White Plains.

On the <4>: I'm assuming what R160 envisioned is a 4 line setup in the Bronx that is similar to what's on the 6 line (dual terminals being Parkchester and Pelham, Pelham trains express Park to 3Av peak direction, matching headways for both services). In the case of the 4, the dual terminals would be Woodlawn and Burnside Av, with the Woodlawn trains express to 149 (and possibly even bypassing 138) in the peak direction with matching headways.

Right now, the track configuration does not allow for this. Unlike the 6 line where both set of switches are between Castle Hill and Parkchester allowing for trains to "relay" for service going the other direction, the same cannot be said between Burnside and 183. Going south, one set is below Burnside, not above. The northbound is in the right place. One set of switches would need to be moved to the other side of Burnside Av to allow for such a setup. In addition, Burnside Av just went through a renovation updating the platform and canopy. It would need another renovation, to create new crew facilities and dispatcher offices, etc to enable it to be a terminal.

Unlike the Pelham line (where ridership between Pelham and Castle Hill is roughly equal in terms of train capacity to all those local stops south of Parkchester), the <4>'s coming out of Woodlawn would be noticably more packed then the (4) out of Burnside Av. As you know, there are two heavy stations north of Burnside (Fordham Rd, Mosholu Pkwy) while there is only 161st south of Burnside. Some Yankee games are a special animal as you would lose the storage tracks where the Yankee special shuttle trains await the end of a game. Also getting to the game, every train needs to stop at 161st, and many games begin when the <4> would be running.

Another factor is the physical place of belonging (this goes against starting express service northbound at 167th st). On the 6 at 3Av, customers can look out the window at what track they are on and determine for themselves (usually) if they are on an express or a local regardless of the signage or announcements (there are a couple Pelham trains that go local in the Bronx at the tail end of rush hour to provide more service at Pelham). That luxury is not available on the 7 line at Queensboro, and that line for years has had to deal with that. Other lines have a separate service (2/5 at 3 Av, B/Q at Prospect Park) to distinguish express from local. The 4 does not have that at 167, only at 149. This would literally force 4 trains to be express from 149 not 167, which gets destroyed by the presense of Yankee Stadium.
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#491901 - 09/09/09 05:18 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: TwoTimer]
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Well, hopefully the <4> gets implemented permanently. I mean the test was successful, so what are they waiting for?


Edited by R160Etrain (09/09/09 05:19 PM)

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#492174 - 09/16/09 10:37 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
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I see the <4> Jerome Avenue Super Express has returned in a new direction. The <4> runs middays stopping at Woodlawn, Mosholu Parkway, Burnside Avenue and 138th Street in The Bronx.
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#492182 - 09/16/09 12:08 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: EE Broadway Local]
Forest Glen Offline
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That's not a super express. It's a GO.
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#492249 - 09/17/09 05:11 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: Forest Glen]
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good the <4> is back and it would be benefical when comming in and out of the bx.
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#492264 - 09/17/09 07:44 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: Q89LCL]
Aman Offline
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I applaud the MTA for trying new things.

Express service for the Bronx is long overdue, since Brooklyn has always had it. ( Q local & express) 4th avenue D trains, etc.

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#492276 - 09/17/09 10:49 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: Aman]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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Whether or not a particular line has express service, that is not an indicator whether the express service itself is providing utility for the riders. Or that the riders are neglected if there isn't express service. Or that a transit line is bad or good because it does or does not have express service.

Some transit fans seem to love or equate express service with goodness, and plenty of times that is so not the case. Express service is helpful where it can exist, if it really helps to get folks to where they need to be. What good is an express service if it bypasses the places where the majority of folk want to go, where it bypasses the most crowded stations, where the local trains are filled to the brim and breaking points while express streak by with 5 persons per car at full-tilt rush hours? Sometime it seems like transit fan have never met an express run that they did not like, or could not like.

The Bronx is filled with 3-track subway lines which means that some of the trains are going to be local, even the "express trains". Comparing the Bronx to Brooklyn which has 5 four-track subway lines, twice the population of the Bronx, plus several two and three track branch lines, and spreads out to north, east, south and west Brooklyn -- is the very definition of an apples to oranges comparison. There is no comparison transit line wise between the Bronx and Brooklyn - they have completely different transit situations, histories, etc.

There is no reason for the #4 express operation to resemble the #6, when it might more resemble the #7 express operation, or simply exist as its own operation. Conducting the #4 express experiment does not in any sense mean that the riders were neglected before.

Just because there is something that looks like an express track does not mean that it actually has to be used as one. For example on the A-line in Queens about Rockaway Blvd there's a middle track that could be used for express service, but maybe not since all is does is lead directly to the train yard.

Just my thoughts.
Mike

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#492292 - 09/18/09 11:23 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: MikeGerald45]
Dre Offline
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I would like 4 peak express service in the Bronx

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#492552 - 09/24/09 07:16 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
Aman Offline
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Loc: Manhattan
The Bronx deserves equal service.

The 4 thru express' should continue, stopping on all express stops.

The 5 thru express, or 2 thru express should stop at E 149 street, east 180 street, and Gun Hill road - as the tracks were designed ( and did in the 1950's and 1960's.) Then people in the outskirts of the Bronx get equal service.

NYC grew to 8,000,000 people because mass transit permitted the above. It did not emphasize local service.

By the way, commuters are all not stupid, and if train signs were diamonds or circles, they would know which is a thru express or local. Plus if/ after taking the wrong trin once, they would learn.

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#492561 - 09/24/09 08:26 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: Aman]
Forest Glen Offline
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The problem is that the 4 express skips the busiest stations (including Fordham)
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#492564 - 09/24/09 09:43 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: Forest Glen]
219 Offline
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Many express trains in the system skip busy stops....

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#492716 - 09/28/09 05:51 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
norwood_xpress Offline
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I know I'm getting on this at the end of the textersation... but what about having a D TRAIN BRONX EXPRESS SERVICE throughout the day similar to that of the 6 train line, not just rush hours. No infrastuctural changes are needed. Also, you 4 train riders can just walk the measeley 3 city block difference between grand concourse and jerome/ river ave. Problem solved.

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#492718 - 09/28/09 07:35 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: norwood_xpress]
CenSin Offline
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Originally Posted By: norwood_xpress
I know I'm getting on this at the end of the textersation... but what about having a D TRAIN BRONX EXPRESS SERVICE throughout the day similar to that of the 6 train line, not just rush hours. No infrastuctural changes are needed. Also, you 4 train riders can just walk the measeley 3 city block difference between grand concourse and jerome/ river ave.
The Pelham line is about 18 stations. The Grand Concourse line is only 11 stations. The Jerome Avenue is about 13 stations. I don't think an express during midday is reasonable. The Grand Concourse and Jerome Avenue lines also run to opposite sides of Manhattan. Why do you think an express that only saves 2 to 4 minutes on a relatively average length line is necessary during the least busy time of the day?

Originally Posted By: norwood_xpress
Problem solved.
You don't even know what the problem is.


Edited by CenSin (09/28/09 07:37 PM)
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#492723 - 09/28/09 08:21 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: CenSin]
RokuSix Offline


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Don't forget to stay on topic, guys!
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#492735 - 09/29/09 01:06 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: RokuSix]
TheGreatOne2k7 Offline
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The (B) should run to the Bronx during middays and evenings, to 167 St though since the (D) can be crowded middays and evenings (even more so after 7pm).

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#492736 - 09/29/09 01:34 AM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: TheGreatOne2k7]
CenSin Offline
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They should seriously reconsider the <4>'s route. The <4> can run express straight out of Woodlawn, but the route takes the extra step to make sure that <4> trains on either track switch to the southbound local track to make a stop at Mosholou Parkway. If they're going to go through that trouble, they might as well as make one more stop at Bedford Park Boulevard to pick up some extra riders. That will distribute the passenger load more evenly north of Burnside Avenue. The other option is to run local until Burnside Avenue. Of course, the more stops it makes, the more it'll eat away at the <4>'s time savings. The express run from Burnside Avenue to 149 Street is estimated to save about 2 to 3 minutes.

Originally Posted By: RokuSix
Don't forget to stay on topic, guys!
Originally Posted By: TheGreatOne2k7
The (B) should run to the Bronx during middays and evenings, to 167 St though since the (D) can be crowded middays and evenings (even more so after 7pm).

I laughed out loud. laugh
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#492744 - 09/29/09 01:18 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: CenSin]
cotb16 Offline
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Originally Posted By: CenSin
They should seriously reconsider the <4>'s route. The <4> can run express straight out of Woodlawn, but the route takes the extra step to make sure that <4> trains on either track switch to the southbound local track to make a stop at Mosholou Parkway. If they're going to go through that trouble, they might as well as make one more stop at Bedford Park Boulevard to pick up some extra riders. That will distribute the passenger load more evenly north of Burnside Avenue. The other option is to run local until Burnside Avenue. Of course, the more stops it makes, the more it'll eat away at the <4>'s time savings. The express run from Burnside Avenue to 149 Street is estimated to save about 2 to 3 minutes.


I have to agree with you on this one. With the <4> running local from Woodlawn to Bedford Park Blvd would do two main things.

First, Bedford park riders (as well as those from Riverdale and Allerton) access to the <4> express, speeding up their trip into the Southern Bronx and Manhattan.

Second, riders coming from Woodlawn, Wakefield, and Westchester either work or attend school within the Educational Mile (which includes Clinton HS, Walton HS, Bronx HS of Science, HS of American Studies, and Lehman College). As a result, many from the Eastern Bronx use the (4) to Bedford Park Blvd.
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#492748 - 09/29/09 03:23 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: cotb16]
R160Etrain Offline
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Considering that the SAS at this point is never going to come since it was recently pushed back to 2016, the <4> is going to be needed as soon as possible.

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#492753 - 09/29/09 04:23 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: R160Etrain]
shadyelstation Offline
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Never say never re: SAS.
As for the <4>, I have my reservations because all (4)'s have to merge at 149 when they skip 138 St, then they merge with the (5) south of there.

If it must be so, I'd prefer the <4> running express south of Burnside Ave.
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#492761 - 09/29/09 06:44 PM Re: 4 peak express service in the Bronx [Re: shadyelstation]
R160Etrain Offline
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A <4> MIGHT be useful during the pm rush. Some riders north of burnside might prefer <4> over the (4) to avoid the yankee crowds, perhaps relieving some crowding off the (4). Assuming of course during the pm, it makes all stop s from Burnside to Woodlawn and during the am it runs via Jerome Super Express. But this is just a speculation, now if CBTC ever comes to the lexington Av line, the MTA could add more <4> trains.


Edited by R160Etrain (09/29/09 06:45 PM)

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