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#474288 - 03/14/09 08:30 PM An (L) Line What If?
EE Broadway Local Offline

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What if the B.M.T. had built the Fourteenth Street Canarsie Line as three tracks between Eighth Avenue and Broadway Junction? How might service be today?
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#474294 - 03/14/09 11:28 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: EE Broadway Local]
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Great Question. I would implement peak direction express service. The express stations might might be 5 stations apart like on the <6>.

<L> Canarsie Express, Weekday rush hour service only peak direction.


Edited by BX41LTD (03/14/09 11:36 PM)
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#474327 - 03/15/09 10:50 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: BX41LTD]
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Yeh, the L would probably run like the 7 currently does.
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#474391 - 03/15/09 02:59 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: B35 via Church]
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^ Except more efficient, since there would be no bottlenecks. The terminals would be a problem though, since the only three-track terminal in the system (Main St.) is a disaster for turning trains.

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#474509 - 03/16/09 10:01 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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Originally Posted By: R32_3348
^ Except more efficient, since there would be no bottlenecks. The terminals would be a problem though, since the only three-track terminal in the system (Main St.) is a disaster for turning trains.


How does PATH pull it off at 33rd and Hoboken (the three track terminal, that is)?

Depending on the L express stops, a peak direction express may not relieve much crowding. Reference our much discussed Culver Express topic. Many heavily used stations are simply skipped, thus negating the need, or will frankly, for an express. What stations would be express?
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#475077 - 03/20/09 03:34 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: EE Broadway Local]
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Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local
What if the B.M.T. had built the Fourteenth Street Canarsie Line as three tracks between Eighth Avenue and "Broadway Junction"? How might service be today?
What letter might the peak direction express have today?
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#475079 - 03/20/09 06:40 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
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Originally Posted By: NX Sea Beach Express
Originally Posted By: R32_3348
^ Except more efficient, since there would be no bottlenecks. The terminals would be a problem though, since the only three-track terminal in the system (Main St.) is a disaster for turning trains.


How does PATH pull it off at 33rd and Hoboken (the three track terminal, that is)?

Depending on the L express stops, a peak direction express may not relieve much crowding. Reference our much discussed Culver Express topic. Many heavily used stations are simply skipped, thus negating the need, or will frankly, for an express. What stations would be express?


The express would no doubt relieve crowding. Have the <L> run peak express between Myrtle and Lorimer St and the (L) terminates at Myrtle Av

<L> Canarsie to 8 Av
(L) Myrtle Av to 8 Av

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#475136 - 03/20/09 01:50 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
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thats a good idea <>to canarsie and local to bway junction
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#475260 - 03/20/09 09:06 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
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The diamond rollsigns are played out. Think of someting else

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#476292 - 03/29/09 04:58 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: 219]
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I would call the express the (K). The diamonds are so played out.
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#476344 - 03/29/09 08:58 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Ftrain]
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The term "played out" is played out...lol
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#476346 - 03/29/09 09:01 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
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lol... But it's true, the diamonds are no longer need to be use, that's like the 1970's and 80's when their where diamonds everywhere.
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#476421 - 03/30/09 12:34 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Ftrain]
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Diamonds are still used for the 6 and 7 expresses.

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#476425 - 03/30/09 12:40 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Grand Concourse]
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Besides those two lines...
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#476437 - 03/30/09 01:01 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Ftrain]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Well diamond 5, A, B, D, M's are all unnecessary since they only represented rush hour service. A few years ago the map added dashes to represent rush hour service. So for those lines, the diamonds were eliminated.


Edited by Grand Concourse (03/30/09 01:02 AM)

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#476460 - 03/30/09 10:37 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: 219]
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Originally Posted By: 219
The diamond rollsigns are played out. Think of someting else


Tell the MTA that. They are using diamonds to demark peak direction express service. So the <L> fits the current standard.
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#476461 - 03/30/09 10:39 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Ftrain]
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Originally Posted By: R160Ftrain
lol... But it's true, the diamonds are no longer need to be use, that's like the 1970's and 80's when their where diamonds everywhere.


Actually double lettered lines were everywhere rather than diamonds. AA, CC, EE, LL, RR to name a few. Then you had the QB, a hybrid express/local service rush hours and now currently full time as the Q circle.
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#477135 - 04/04/09 04:05 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
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Originally Posted By: NX Sea Beach Express
How does PATH pull it off at 33rd and Hoboken (the three track terminal, that is)
I don't know anything about PATH so I can't answer that. I'll look at a track map and get back to you.

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#477356 - 04/06/09 12:41 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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IIRC, in PATH's case, one track is for Journal Square, one for Hoboken and the third track is used for layups/emergencies at 33d Street. (Two services - Journal Square-33d Street and Hoboken-33d Street).
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#478603 - 04/17/09 06:35 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: EE Broadway Local]
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Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local
What if the B.M.T. had built the Fourteenth Street Canarsie Line as three tracks between Eighth Avenue and Broadway Junction? How might service be today?


EE Broadway Local, what stations would you put as express stations?

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#478628 - 04/17/09 11:44 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: 219]
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The L would make all stops from Rockaway Parkway to Broadway Junction. Myrtle would be the next express stop followed by Lorimer and Bedford. After stopping at 1st Avenue the next stop would be Union Square.
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#478706 - 04/18/09 09:12 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
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I would put express stations at Rockaway Parkway, New Lots Avenue, Broadway Junction, Aberdeen Street, Lorimer Street and Bedford Avenue. It will make all stops along 14th Street.
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#478726 - 04/18/09 10:14 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: BX41LTD]
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Originally Posted By: BX41LTD
I would put express stations at Rockaway Parkway, New Lots Avenue, Broadway Junction, Aberdeen Street, Lorimer Street and Bedford Avenue. It will make all stops along 14th Street.

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#478755 - 04/18/09 11:17 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: 219]
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Aberdeen is probably the least used station on the L. Why would that be an express stop?
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#478803 - 04/19/09 06:02 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
Q89LCL Offline


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Ok rockaway,pky
B-Jct
Myrtle-wykoff
Bedford st then all stops to 8th av. Exp.
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#478817 - 04/19/09 07:56 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
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Very well
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#478826 - 04/19/09 08:18 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
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Isn't the L a relatively short line? I haven't ridden it out to Rockaway, but on the maps, it seems as if it's short and quick and really wouldn't need an express.
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#478828 - 04/19/09 08:20 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: RokuSix]
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From Rockaway Parkway to 8th Avenue is a 40 minute ride. It wouldn't hurt to shave 5-10 minutes off the ride.
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#478834 - 04/19/09 08:29 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: RokuSix]
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Originally Posted By: RokuSix
Isn't the L a relatively short line? I haven't ridden it out to Rockaway, but on the maps, it seems as if it's short and quick and really wouldn't need an express.

You are correct. Ideas like Lex Express's (Mr. Wilson) are not at all well thought out in terms of the reasons behind express service in NYC. You're way ahead of the curve and would do well at SubChat.

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#478838 - 04/19/09 08:39 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
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Originally Posted By: Lex Express
Aberdeen is probably the least used station on the L. Why would that be an express stop?

Only on weekdays, and just barely. On Saturdays and Sundays, Atlantic Av is lower.

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#478859 - 04/19/09 10:50 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Terrapin Station]
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In my opnion the (L) dosn't get crowded much compared to all the other subway lines.
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#478882 - 04/20/09 11:23 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: BX41LTD]
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Originally Posted By: BX41LTD
In my opnion the (L) dosn't get crowded much compared to all the other subway lines.


You're not a regular L rider. In the morning rush it is typically crushloaded and at 3.5 minute headways, at times you have to wait for 2 or 3 trains before you can board.

As for express service, the L is a little like the F where some of the busiest stations are the 1's in Brooklyn closest to Manhattan. So, I'm not sure what the point of bypassing these stations would be.
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#479020 - 04/21/09 03:05 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
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In my plan it stops@ bedford ave because its the most used station in bk.on the line
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#479103 - 04/21/09 11:03 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
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Really, don't let the L CBTC go to waste. The simple solution is just to ramp up frequency (one every 2 minutes would be a godsend), then lengthen the platforms if necessary. When that overruns, chances are there will have been another subway line built (because adding express tracks that merge in Manhattan just creates a bottleneck in Manhattan and shortchanges local riders).
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#479114 - 04/22/09 10:39 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: EQ_Express]
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Originally Posted By: EQ_Express
Really, don't let the L CBTC go to waste. The simple solution is just to ramp up frequency (one every 2 minutes would be a godsend), then lengthen the platforms if necessary. When that overruns, chances are there will have been another subway line built (because adding express tracks that merge in Manhattan just creates a bottleneck in Manhattan and shortchanges local riders).


The express track would need to go the full length of the route, or if you end local service at Myrtle, you can merge the tracks after that.
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#479115 - 04/22/09 11:54 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: EQ_Express]
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Originally Posted By: EQ_Express
Really, don't let the L CBTC go to waste. The simple solution is just to ramp up frequency (one every 2 minutes would be a godsend), then lengthen the platforms if necessary. When that overruns, chances are there will have been another subway line built (because adding express tracks that merge in Manhattan just creates a bottleneck in Manhattan and shortchanges local riders).
Exactly. This was my point a while ago: they aren't likely building another tunnel[s] just for the express. If anything it would have to share the current tunnel which would just mean delays from merging back with the local and negating savings from the express service. And I really doubt they are going to build another set of tracks and station along or under the current L line. They would be better off building a new crosstown route on like 23rd Street or somewhere.

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#479135 - 04/22/09 04:08 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Grand Concourse]
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CBTC makes skip stop service possible but people are against it
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#479138 - 04/22/09 04:19 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
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But why would you need skip stop if you can run a train at every station or close to it? Skip stop means a train you are on would still have to wait for the one in front to clear the station before the train you are on can bypass that stop. It only works for the J/Z because there isn't a high demand for service as it is on the L.

Should a train get backed up, they can always have it bypass a few stops to catch up to the train in front and the following trains picking up the riders.

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#479144 - 04/22/09 04:28 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Grand Concourse]
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Bushwich-Aberdeen and Bedford Avenue don't require the same amount of trains. All skip stop does is expedite the ride for busier stations.
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#479146 - 04/22/09 04:43 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
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But are the 'busy' stops like every other stop? Because if there are stretches like 2 busy stations in a row, then skip stop pretty much is pointless.
Lesser used stations might not need the service, but I don't see it as a reason for skip stop. I mean should a stop like Bowery on the J/Z/M be a reason for skip stops there on Nassau-Centre St?

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#479296 - 04/23/09 01:58 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Grand Concourse]
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i think skipstop works great.
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#479393 - 04/24/09 12:18 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
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If people keep an open mind then they'll realize that just because something is new doesn't mean it's bad.
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#479396 - 04/24/09 12:20 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Originally Posted By: Q89LCL
i think skipstop works great.
Have you rode the L? If so why do you think skip stop for the L is so great?

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#479397 - 04/24/09 12:23 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lex Express
If people keep an open mind then they'll realize that just because something is new doesn't mean it's bad.
The point of CBCT is to run the trains closer together. With skip stop, you need at least a one station gap between trains for it to work. I really doubt you can make the L work like that compared to the J/Z where service for each station is about even and doesn't require frequent train service.

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#479460 - 04/24/09 07:30 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Grand Concourse]
Q89LCL Offline


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Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse
Originally Posted By: Q89LCL
i think skipstop works great.
Have you rode the L? If so why do you think skip stop for the L is so great?
yes and I think skip stop is great because it moves the trains faster that are already crouded and it Relives it.
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#479515 - 04/25/09 12:46 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
via101Av Offline
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They should just try it out and see how Skip-Stop on the (L) works.
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#479543 - 04/25/09 01:03 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Well ok then, if you think it is fine. But I still say it doesn't make sense now when there is CBCT for the L.

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#481586 - 05/10/09 04:22 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
R32_3348 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Terrapin Station
You are correct. Ideas like Lex Express's (Mr. Wilson) are not at all well thought out in terms of the reasons behind express service in NYC. You're way ahead of the curve and would do well at SubChat.
If someone else had made the exact same post Lex Express did, then you wouldn't have said that. All you do here is post BS against Lex Express and you do not contribute ANYTHING to any thread. STFU and GTFO.
Originally Posted By: Lex Express
Bushwich-Aberdeen and Bedford Avenue don't require the same amount of trains. All skip stop does is expedite the ride for busier stations.
Skip-stop means you have to wait twice as long at each station served by only one train. This will make crowding worse than it already is, negating the point of CBTC. CBTC makes it so you have to wait less. The line is short enough as it is, and it doesn't need to be made faster.


Edited by R32_3348 (05/10/09 04:23 PM)

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#481682 - 05/11/09 03:26 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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Correct, but if all trains stop at Beford, and 1/2 at B-A, and there is another station with small ridership and that becomes skip-stop too, then 1 to 2 minutes is saved on a trip right there. I know it doesn't sound like much, but if you could shave 5 minutes off a rush hour trip, it's worth it IMO. Every minute counts at those times of the day. I think skip stop east of Myrtle could work, and west of Myrtle, all stops. Having said this, it seems that more and more L's are being short-turned at Myrtle in the AM which is also greatly relieving the overcrowding on the line.
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#481685 - 05/11/09 04:05 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Grand Concourse]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: R32_3348
Originally Posted By: Terrapin Station
You are correct. Ideas like Lex Express's (Mr. Wilson) are not at all well thought out in terms of the reasons behind express service in NYC. You're way ahead of the curve and would do well at SubChat.
If someone else had made the exact same post Lex Express did, then you wouldn't have said that. All you do here is post BS against Lex Express and you do not contribute ANYTHING to any thread. STFU and GTFO.
Originally Posted By: Lex Express
Bushwich-Aberdeen and Bedford Avenue don't require the same amount of trains. All skip stop does is expedite the ride for busier stations.
Skip-stop means you have to wait twice as long at each station served by only one train. This will make crowding worse than it already is, negating the point of CBTC. CBTC makes it so you have to wait less. The line is short enough as it is, and it doesn't need to be made faster.


I think people are missing the whole point of the express, the POINT of the express on the L is to RELIEVE CROWDING not make the trip go faster.


Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse
Originally Posted By: EQ_Express
Really, don't let the L CBTC go to waste. The simple solution is just to ramp up frequency (one every 2 minutes would be a godsend), then lengthen the platforms if necessary. When that overruns, chances are there will have been another subway line built (because adding express tracks that merge in Manhattan just creates a bottleneck in Manhattan and shortchanges local riders).
Exactly. This was my point a while ago: they aren't likely building another tunnel[s] just for the express. If anything it would have to share the current tunnel which would just mean delays from merging back with the local and negating savings from the express service. And I really doubt they are going to build another set of tracks and station along or under the current L line. They would be better off building a new crosstown route on like 23rd Street or somewhere.


Merging trains isn't that bad, it's the same line, it's not like you're merging two different lines like E/V where 8 Avenue riders have to wait longer. on the (L) this is not the case, it wouldnt matter for riders heading into Manhattan because an L train is going to come into the station regardless if it's an (L) or a <L>.

Second even with a delay in the merging of the express and local trains you still save time on your trip when compared to waiting for 2-3 L trains pass by until you can actually fit into a train

Third, ANY relief in crowding would make L riders happy, Im sure people would rather have a chance of a delay and a less crowded train then having no delay, wait on the platform letting 2-3 L trains go by and have jam-packed trains.


Edited by R160Etrain (05/11/09 04:05 PM)

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#481838 - 05/13/09 01:26 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
Grand Concourse Offline
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The person riding the express might save a few minutes, but again the trains still have to merge into the one tunnel and the trains will be backed up. You aren't solving anything by building this express if it still merges back when it goes via the river tunnel to Manhattan.
If you want to build a new line and a new river tunnel, then make it parallel to the L rather than just under it and using the L's tunnel.

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#481898 - 05/13/09 06:02 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Grand Concourse]
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But it reduces crowding, plus merging isn't even, plus the L has CBTC as well.

7/<7> doesnt even have CBTC and they do a pretty good job of merging.

Now the E/F, THOSE lines are horrendous at merging.

But if they fix the terminals and L service gets beefed up to 2-3 min then I guess it wont be needed, unless L service is beefed and crowding still persists, then by all means imput a peak directional express.

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#481940 - 05/13/09 10:58 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
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It only reduces crowding before it gets to the tunnels. But when they merge, all you do is create a bottleneck. What good does an extra set of tracks do if they still use the same river tunnel and Manhattan stations?
Just scrap this <L> fantasy. CBTC is enough.

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#482256 - 05/16/09 02:01 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: EE Broadway Local]
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Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local
What if the B.M.T. had built the Fourteenth Street Canarsie Line as three tracks between Eighth Avenue and Broadway Junction? How might service be today?


I actually can't imagine the Canarsie line having express service. I'm glad the BMT built it only two tracks.

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#482351 - 05/17/09 05:07 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: 219]
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Building it with three tracks in Brooklyn does not add any capacity to the line if it has to merge at 8th Ave. This means you have to run the same TPH as if the entire line was 2-tracked. That means you can't run train service more often, you just distribute the train across one more track.

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#482408 - 05/18/09 01:58 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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Thank you, and exactly my point.

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#483219 - 05/22/09 05:17 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Grand Concourse]
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well i think they should have built a lower level.
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#483268 - 05/22/09 10:15 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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Originally Posted By: R32_3348
Building it with three tracks in Brooklyn does not add any capacity to the line if it has to merge at 8th Ave. This means you have to run the same TPH as if the entire line was 2-tracked. That means you can't run train service more often, you just distribute the train across one more track.


The 7 train is a three tracked line and its service pattern is efficient. Why is the L different?
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#483305 - 05/23/09 06:53 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
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In actuality it helps with a am and pm like exp train.
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#483587 - 05/25/09 04:46 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
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Originally Posted By: Lex Express
The 7 train is a three tracked line and its service pattern is efficient. Why is the L different?

Back when they ran the 7 local, the line ran with more service at every station. The express takes away service from the local so both the local and express don't have optimal service. Also, the 7 has a very efficient terminal at Times Sq., and turns around trains quickly enough at Main St. Both of the L's terminals are inefficient so they allow for longer wait times. The L also seems more crowded than the 7 (don't have ridership figures though).

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#483605 - 05/25/09 05:51 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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If that's true ,why don't the mta fix this issue?
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#483606 - 05/25/09 05:55 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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They are plain broke to fix the stations.


Edited by Q89LCL (05/25/09 06:09 PM)
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#484406 - 05/31/09 01:19 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Originally Posted By: Q89LCL
They are plain broke to fix the stations.
So you answered your own question then?

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#484636 - 06/02/09 01:23 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Grand Concourse]
Q89LCL Offline


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Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse
Originally Posted By: Q89LCL
They are plain broke to fix the stations.
So you answered your own question then?
yeah but i can be wrong.
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#485609 - 06/13/09 05:29 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
R32_3348 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Q89LCL
yeah but i can be wrong.
Which is why you answered it anyway, right...?

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#485664 - 06/14/09 09:41 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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Yea but I wanted somone else to answer it.
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#485665 - 06/14/09 09:44 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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Yea but I wanted somone else to answer it.but back to subject( what if the L went into NJ.)?
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#487214 - 06/29/09 04:20 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: EE Broadway Local]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local
What if the B.M.T. had built the Fourteenth Street Canarsie Line as three tracks between Eighth Avenue and Broadway Junction? How might service be today?


If there wasn't a nassau/jamaica Line, the BMT canarsie line would have most likely have been built with four tracks to handle the additional ridership.

L-Canarsie Express
Canarsie to 8 Av
late nights, evenings and weekends all local

K-Canarsie Local
Broadway Junction to 8 Av
late nights, evenings and weekends take the L


Edited by R160Etrain (06/29/09 04:23 PM)

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#487253 - 06/29/09 10:46 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
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Well what if they would have put in 4 tracks then it could have been a k,still.
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#488569 - 07/11/09 01:25 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
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They would have to send the local or express tracks (whichever one) to a different line than 14th St. to avoid creating a giant bottleneck at Bedford Ave. as trains join from the express/local tracks to just one track under 14th St. per direction.

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#490180 - 08/04/09 09:54 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: R32_3348
Originally Posted By: Lex Express
The 7 train is a three tracked line and its service pattern is efficient. Why is the L different?

Back when they ran the 7 local, the line ran with more service at every station. The express takes away service from the local so both the local and express don't have optimal service. Also, the 7 has a very efficient terminal at Times Sq., and turns around trains quickly enough at Main St. Both of the L's terminals are inefficient so they allow for longer wait times. The L also seems more crowded than the 7 (don't have ridership figures though).


The 7 obviously has higher ridership, the L makes 19 stops in brooklyn while the 7 makes 18 stops in Queens, one more stop than the 7, but Main st alone racks in 58,681 riders on an average weekday.

The only reason why the L is more crowded than the 7 is because
- it doesnt have peak express like the 7
- it's trains are shorter in length than the 7
-The 7 has twice the track capacity of the Canarise Line
- And the transfers at 74 st-Broadway (E/F/R/V) and Queens Plaza (N/W) make a HUGE difference in crowding.

Lets not forget that the (7) local during rush hours runs the same headways as the (L). Even the 7 local despite it's merger with the <7> can run at 4-6 mins. Which shows you how bad the terminals on the L are. So the 7/<7> have twice the track capacity of the Canarsie line. Basically the (L) is like the (7) local train running by itself without the <7>. If they fixed the terminals to allow more track capacity an <L> without a doubt would alleviate crowding.

So people get your facts straight before assuming that an <L> would cause a bottleneck. If the (7) can do it so can the (L)


Edited by R160Etrain (08/04/09 09:59 AM)

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#490581 - 08/12/09 09:27 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
R32_3348 Offline
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Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
The 7 obviously has higher ridership, the L makes 19 stops in brooklyn while the 7 makes 18 stops in Queens, one more stop than the 7, but Main st alone racks in 58,681 riders on an average weekday.

The only reason why the L is more crowded than the 7 is because
- it doesnt have peak express like the 7
- it's trains are shorter in length than the 7
-The 7 has twice the track capacity of the Canarise Line
- And the transfers at 74 st-Broadway (E/F/R/V) and Queens Plaza (N/W) make a HUGE difference in crowding.

Lets not forget that the (7) local during rush hours runs the same headways as the (L). Even the 7 local despite it's merger with the <7> can run at 4-6 mins. Which shows you how bad the terminals on the L are. So the 7/<7> have twice the track capacity of the Canarsie line. Basically the (L) is like the (7) local train running by itself without the <7>. If they fixed the terminals to allow more track capacity an <L> without a doubt would alleviate crowding.

So people get your facts straight before assuming that an <L> would cause a bottleneck. If the (7) can do it so can the (L)


The L trains are only 30 feet shorter than the 7, and they're wider. Thus they have higher capacity. An L train can hold 1,944 people while a 7 train (let's say it ran R142A's for lack of R62A capacity data reasons) can hold 2,008 people. 64 people is not that big of a difference.

Neither of us have the ridership figures of either line, so we should not make assumptions about which line has higher ridership (while it has nothing to do with bottlenecking anyway). Also, of course the <7> causes a bottleneck. It causes one 5 days a week in the AM rush when it merges with the local at QBP, causing locals to be held at 33rd St. The L would have the same problem.

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#490587 - 08/12/09 11:26 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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I personally went to 8 Avenue and took the L train today. The announcements said the next L train would be leaving in 10 minutes. I looked into the tunnel and there was an L train waiting to pull into the terminalů after an L train just pulled into the terminal 1 minute ago. The L train I boarded ended up leaving within 5 minutes. After arriving at 6 Avenue, I saw another L train across the platform stalled. If anything could immediately improve the L line, I'd say extra terminal tracks: either a second platform or long tail tracks would do.
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#490590 - 08/13/09 07:51 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: CenSin]
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Originally Posted By: R32_3348
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
The 7 obviously has higher ridership, the L makes 19 stops in brooklyn while the 7 makes 18 stops in Queens, one more stop than the 7, but Main st alone racks in 58,681 riders on an average weekday.

The only reason why the L is more crowded than the 7 is because
- it doesnt have peak express like the 7
- it's trains are shorter in length than the 7
-The 7 has twice the track capacity of the Canarise Line
- And the transfers at 74 st-Broadway (E/F/R/V) and Queens Plaza (N/W) make a HUGE difference in crowding.

Lets not forget that the (7) local during rush hours runs the same headways as the (L). Even the 7 local despite it's merger with the <7> can run at 4-6 mins. Which shows you how bad the terminals on the L are. So the 7/<7> have twice the track capacity of the Canarsie line. Basically the (L) is like the (7) local train running by itself without the <7>. If they fixed the terminals to allow more track capacity an <L> without a doubt would alleviate crowding.

So people get your facts straight before assuming that an <L> would cause a bottleneck. If the (7) can do it so can the (L)


The L trains are only 30 feet shorter than the 7, and they're wider. Thus they have higher capacity. An L train can hold 1,944 people while a 7 train (let's say it ran R142A's for lack of R62A capacity data reasons) can hold 2,008 people. 64 people is not that big of a difference.

Neither of us have the ridership figures of either line, so we should not make assumptions about which line has higher ridership (while it has nothing to do with bottlenecking anyway). Also, of course the <7> causes a bottleneck. It causes one 5 days a week in the AM rush when it merges with the local at QBP, causing locals to be held at 33rd St. The L would have the same problem.


It's not a bad at all when the <7>/(7) trains merge. Plus I wouldnt consider it a bottleneck since a lot of trains merge in the subway system. Examples: A/D at 59 st, E/F at 36 st, E/F at Forest Hills, 4/5 at 125 st,etc. A bottleneck is something like E180 st or Rogers Junction, that's a bottleneck.

Also the (L) is 81 ft shorter than the (7), NOT 30 ft.

R62's are 51 ft
R143's are 60 ft

Dont forget that the (L) uses 8-car sets not 10 car sets

51x11=561
60x8 =480

subtract the difference and its 81 ft.

Also, without even guessing the (7) train obviously has the higher ridership.
the (7) stops at more popular stops than the (L). Example: Times Square, Grand Central Station, Roosevelt Av, Citi Field and Main st-Flushing.



Originally Posted By: CenSin
I personally went to 8 Avenue and took the L train today. The announcements said the next L train would be leaving in 10 minutes. I looked into the tunnel and there was an L train waiting to pull into the terminalů after an L train just pulled into the terminal 1 minute ago. The L train I boarded ended up leaving within 5 minutes. After arriving at 6 Avenue, I saw another L train across the platform stalled. If anything could immediately improve the L line, I'd say extra terminal tracks: either a second platform or long tail tracks would do.


Agreed. You'd think that the line with the best technology in the subway system would have decent terminals but sadly it doesnt. CBTC is useless if the terminals limit the amount of trains you can run per hour.

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#490953 - 08/21/09 10:57 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
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The 7 is busier than the L but the L gets crowded. Try boarding the L at Bedford Avenue at 8 AM
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#491176 - 08/25/09 06:03 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
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Originally Posted By: Lex Express
The 7 is busier than the L but the L gets crowded. Try boarding the L at Bedford Avenue at 8 AM


Unlike the 7, the L doesnt have any good transfers west of Bway Junction, so people just continue piling up on the L. At least the 7 train can unload passengers at 74 st with transfers to the QB line and then again it can unload passengers at Queensboro plaza with transfers to the Astoria Line. If the 7 didnt have those trnasfers the 7 would have the same crowding problems as the L. If the Broadway/Nassau line still had mid-town access, as well as Bway Junction-Essex st exp crowding on the L would probably be different from today.

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#491194 - 08/26/09 02:40 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
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From a previous message: "Unlike the 7, the L doesn't have any good transfers west of Bway Junction.."

I believe that in Manhattan, there's Eighth Avenue with transfers to/from the A, C and E lines. There's Sixth Avenue with transfers to/from the 1,2,3,F, and V lines. There's Union Square (its original terminal) with transfers to the 4,5,6,N,R,Q and W lines. And in Brooklyn there Myrtle Avenue with a transfer to the M train. And at the Lorimer and Metropolitan Avenue station there is a transfer to/from the G train.

While west of the Broadway Junction station, the L-train does not share its tracks with any other route, I'd say there are several transfer options.

Mike

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#491195 - 08/26/09 06:49 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: MikeGerald45]
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Sorry, what I meant to say was that in Brooklyn, the L doesnt have any good transfers west of Bway Junction. I mean there is nothing on the G/M lines thats going to make L riders transfer to those lines. At least on the flushing line A LOT of people transfer to the QB and Astoria lines because they ACTUALLY go somewhere important. Not like the G/M where they go no where and instead just pile on more riders on the L.

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#491213 - 08/26/09 02:03 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
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What is a good and bad transfer?

The transfers to the G and M are heavily utilized. Thus for those who require these transfers regularly, they are good.

I think that a 'bad' transfer is the G at Court Sq because to continue the trip out to Queens to a local station, instead of staying on the train, you have (i) walk far to get the E to ride it 1 stop to (ii) get the R to continue the trip.

Another 'bad' transfer IMO is the S to the A C E at 42 St. That walk is ridiculous! smile
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#491215 - 08/26/09 02:21 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: NX Sea Beach Express
What is a good and bad transfer?

The transfers to the G and M are heavily utilized. Thus for those who require these transfers regularly, they are good.

I think that a 'bad' transfer is the G at Court Sq because to continue the trip out to Queens to a local station, instead of staying on the train, you have (i) walk far to get the E to ride it 1 stop to (ii) get the R to continue the trip.

Another 'bad' transfer IMO is the S to the A C E at 42 St. That walk is ridiculous! smile


Good question.

On the L line the transfers to the G/M trains pile on more riders on the L then they take off.

:Note Im talking about the am rush where riders need to go to Manhattan

Myrtle-Wyckoff is a good transfer for M riders because they can transfer to the L.
But the transfer is bad for the L, because unless you're going to lower manhattan there's no point in transferring to the M. And even so there are better and faster alternatives to lower manhattan. 4/5 trains anyone?

Now at 74 st-Broadway on the Flushing Line, this transfer is good because QB riders can transfer to the 7 line. this transfer is also good for the Flushing line because it takes a load off the 7 local train. Heck ride the 7 downtown during the weekends, and you'll see a difference in crowding from before it arrives at 74 st, to after it leaves 74 st.

Now the transfer at lorimer st. This transfer is good for the G train because G riders can transfer to the L to go to Manhattan. Now for the L train this is a bad transfer because unless you want to take the G to transfer to the A/C/F trains there is no point in transferring to it and even so, you can transfer to practically every line in manhattan!?

Now the transfer at Queensboro Plaza is a good transfer for the Astoria Line, because Astoria riders can transfer to the Flushing Line. This transfer is also good for the flushing line because it relieves the load off the 7 train. Like I said before about 74 st-Broadway, you'll see a difference in crowding from before it arrives at Queensboro Plaza to after it leaves Queensboro Plaza.

In conclusion the transfers at the G/M pile on more riders for the L then it takes off riders, as its heading to Manhattan. On the 7/<7> line its different. These transfers take off riders slightly more than it adds on as the 7 makes its way into manhattan.


Edited by R160Etrain (08/26/09 02:24 PM)

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#491221 - 08/26/09 03:54 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
Forest Glen Offline
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At Queensboro Plaza heading towards Manhattan it seems like more people transfer from the 7 to the N/W than vice versa
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#491236 - 08/26/09 08:18 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
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They'll take the 7 because it is more frequent. Even both the N and W running, it can still be some time till either shows up and meanwhile at least two-three 7 trains will have passed.
But no doubt the N/W transfer at 59th-Lex is still much easier than the 7 at 42nd.

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#491254 - 08/27/09 06:58 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Grand Concourse]
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Its because the 7/<7> is constantly dropping off passengers at Queensboro Plaza is the reason why the astoria line requires efficient service.

But back on the L line, the point im trying to make is that L riders going to manhattan dont have any reason to transfer to the G/M lines, which results in more people piling up on the L.

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#491338 - 08/29/09 06:12 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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I understand the point that you are making concerning "bad" transfers, as in transfers that relieve the L-train of riders while furthering the goals of getting riders to their destinations.

Mike

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#491377 - 08/31/09 11:20 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: MikeGerald45]
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Exactly. Bway Junction is the only good transfer in Brooklyn for the L.

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#491389 - 08/31/09 05:44 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
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People do use the transfers to the G/M lines. They may transfer to the M because they are headed to lower Manhattan and the M has better transfers in Manhattan than the L does. The G is more useful than you think; riders not going to Manhattan (or maybe heading to 53rd St. stations) would use the G.

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#491422 - 09/01/09 10:21 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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I agree. Both transfers are typically crowded especially at rush hour, so I'm probably just missing the point of this thread.
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#491458 - 09/02/09 01:29 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: R32_3348
People do use the transfers to the G/M lines. They may transfer to the M because they are headed to lower Manhattan and the M has better transfers in Manhattan than the L does. The G is more useful than you think; riders not going to Manhattan (or maybe heading to 53rd St. stations) would use the G.


Yes, while the M does go to Lower Manhattan, but L riders are proablby going to take the L into Manhattan, and transfer to the 4/5 or the 2/3, or any other line that goes to Lower Manhattan, depending on their destination, plus the M takes 10 mins to show up and is all local to boot.

Yes of course those transfers are used, but they do absolutely NOTHING to alleviate crowding on the L. If the 7/<7> had useless transfers like the L, the flushing line would be much more crowded.

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#491465 - 09/02/09 03:50 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
NX Sea Beach Express Offline
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So then for example, the Coney Island transfer is basically useless because few people change trains at this station? Am I following the logic now?
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#491473 - 09/02/09 07:35 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: NX Sea Beach Express
So then for example, the Coney Island transfer is basically useless because few people change trains at this station? Am I following the logic now?


No, you're not following the logic. Plus Coney Island is the first stop for the D/F/N/Q, so that is TOTALLY different from what Im trying to say. What I'm saying is that besides Bway junction, the transfers to the G/M lines dont appeal to a lot of L riders heading into Manhattan to actually make them get off the train. Now the 7 train for example: the transfers at 74 st-Bway and Queensboro plaza make A LOT of riders get off the 7 and transfer to other lines.

Maybe if the MTA ever figures out that the problem with L line is the terminals and the L FINALLY runs 2-3 min headway then trains should be less crowded. CBTC on the L line has obviously been a total failure ON the Canarsie Line. There is NO POINT in putting future technology on the Canarsie Line if it has prehistoric caveman terminals. For that they could have just worked on testing out CBTC on the Queens Blvd first, a line that ACTUALLY needs CBTC. I dont care if they took a time machine and got technology from Star Wars and added it on the L, no matter how advance the Canarsie Line would get unless the terminals are fixed, the L will always be crowded, L riders will always have to let 4-5 trains go by and the L will always runs 4-6 headways. The (6) and & (7) lines run more frequent than the L and they dont even have CBTC!

Overall, im not complaining, im just stating the obvious problems with the L train and ways to improve it.


Edited by R160Etrain (09/02/09 07:37 PM)

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#491481 - 09/03/09 01:08 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
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well good speech the L needs its terminal Redone with more tracks and same goes for Rockaway pk.
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#491493 - 09/03/09 11:32 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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A few different points:

From the point of view of easing the crowded-ness of the L-trains during the rush hours, the points concerning the transfer stations have some merit.

With all of the trouble of implementing the CBTC on the L-line, I would really not like to see any or all of that trouble brought to the Queens Blvd line. The folks in Queens would rise up very mad at all of the re-routes, bus subsitutions, delays and outages of service, etc. that plagued the L-line for years. In addition there's the whole issue of mixing CBTC-capable cars on tracks with non-CBTC capable cars, and signal blocks, etc.

Because the L-line relatively isolated, it made a good candidate for CBTC, however all concede that there were many problems getting it implemented. Thus the chance to greatly improve the implementation in the future, hopefully.

Then there is the whole issue of "compensation" - how does the MTA compensate the riders for all of the delays and problems that occured over the years, when the supposed improved service does not materialize? That is one of the undertones of this discussion - the idea that CBTC has not really worked.

The #7 line while it has the Times Square terminal that handles and turns around all of its trains, the terminal situation in Queens is different. According to the schedule, the Main Street-Flushing terminal handles about half of the #7 local trains, and about all of the #7 express trains. During the rush hours, the 111th Street station (the yard access point) terminates and relays half of the #7 local trains. Only half of the #7 local trains actually go to Main Street-Flushing, this reduces the load on that terminal. In addition, at certain points, the Willets Avenue-Stadium station terminates and relays some express trains.

Extending the L-line Eighth Avenue station with a set of tail tracks (like those at Times Square for the #7 line) is an expensive undertaking. I am pretty sure that somebody in the MTA has looked at that as a solution and discounted it, if such an analysis has been done it, publicizing it would be good.

In talking about the L-line sometimes it would help to explain what the "obivious" problems are, that "totally ruin" the line. So while we are throwing the baby out with the bath-water, not seeing any shades of degree just black or white characterizations - the rest of us has a since of the size of the problem.

The floor is open.
Mike

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#491509 - 09/03/09 01:55 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: MikeGerald45]
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Despite the delays, CBTC on the QB line would be worth it. Plus the MTA has already proposed putting CBTC on the QB line. Hopefully it gets approved.

http://www.mta.info/mta/news/releases/?en=080227-HQ4

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#491514 - 09/03/09 05:21 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
bronxlord Offline
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I understand and empathize to a certain extent about the L train being crowded, but please do not identify it as a problematic line. The point about the L not having great transfers in Brooklyn is valid. While I find the G to be a very useful train, its primary employment benefit for people transferring from the L is to get to downtown Brooklyn and maybe the Citibank building in LIC. Also, having it stunted at Court Square reduces its usefulness for the L rider who could take it to Queens Plaza and beyond.

As far as the M goes, its not a great train. When I lived in Bushwick, every now and then I would take the M from lower Manhattan or LES to Central Avenue and walk, and while I did not mind, I did note to myself that I would not be able to tolerate this every day. The M is too few and far between. If the transfer was at Myrtle Avenue where the J/Z stop as well, then it would be better.

The 7 definitely benefits from better transfers, and now that the direct in-system link is being built at Court Sq/45th Rd to the G, E & V trains, will only enhance the line.

As far as CBTC goes, it needs more time to judge its effectiveness. Terminal capacity and labor disputes have really marred it.

Overall, arguing about the L and 7 are like arguing about a Lexus and a BMW. Both are great trains. Try commuting on the 2/5 in The Bronx & Brooklyn, or on the JMZ regularly, and then see how bad the "problems" of the L & 7 really are.
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#491522 - 09/03/09 08:22 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: bronxlord]
Forest Glen Offline
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With the exception of Myrtle, the worst crowding on the L occurs between Graham Avenue and Union Square. Once the L gets past Broadway Junction it empties out.
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#491523 - 09/03/09 09:26 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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Hopefully by 2030 they will have fixed the bugs and implementation problems in CBTC for the Queens Blvd and Flushing lines.

Mike

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#491582 - 09/04/09 10:44 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: MikeGerald45]
R160Etrain Offline
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They should turn Myrtle-Wyckoff Avs into a terminal. That way they can short turn trains to ease crowding south of Myrtle. Also fix the 8 Av terminal so that it can handle the increased capacity.

MTA can turn Myrtle-Wyckoff Avs into a terminal by adding another platform and track behind the northbound wall. Basically converting the station from a one platform two track station into a 2 platform 3 track station.

L-Canarsie Local
Canarsie to 8 Av
rush hours some trains terminate at Myrtle-Wyckoff Avs


4-6 mins to Canarsie
2-3 mins to Myrtle-Wyckoff Avs


Edited by R160Etrain (09/04/09 10:46 PM)

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#491592 - 09/05/09 02:12 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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The MTA can right now terminate trains at the Myrtle AVenue station, and in the very distant past some trains did terminate there. The basic problem is then that about 1/3 to 1/2 of the trains then do not reach the Canarsie terminal - lengthening the headways for those riders. Basically those riders who are east of the Myrtle Avenue station have to wait longer for their trains.

The load would still be on the Manhattan Eighth Avenue terminal to be able to turn around all of those trains quickly enough. The ability of the terminal to turn around trains is seen as a problem now, regardless of the eastern terminal of any L-train. Some would say that the basic problem remains.

For comparison purposes, the #7-train has short-turn trains at 111th Street, and the #6-train has short-turn trains at Parkchester. In either case, the main southern terminal (Times Square or Brooklyn Bridge) does not have a problem returning all of the lines trains to service quickly enough.

So can the MTA short-turn at Myrtle Avenue - YES. Would that really help the problem - MAYBE NOT. Of course, it depends upon which problem one is really trying to solve.

Mike

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#491800 - 09/07/09 07:31 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Q89LCL]
R32_3348 Offline
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Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Yes of course those transfers are used, but they do absolutely NOTHING to alleviate crowding on the L. If the 7/<7> had useless transfers like the L, the flushing line would be much more crowded.

If the transfers did NOTHING to help the L, then the transfers weren't used at all. These transfer points do get crowded so you can't say they don't help the L. They don't necessarily help it very much, but they still help.
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Maybe if the MTA ever figures out that the problem with L line is the terminals and the L FINALLY runs 2-3 min headway then trains should be less crowded. CBTC on the L line has obviously been a total failure ON the Canarsie Line. There is NO POINT in putting future technology on the Canarsie Line if it has prehistoric caveman terminals. For that they could have just worked on testing out CBTC on the Queens Blvd first, a line that ACTUALLY needs CBTC. I dont care if they took a time machine and got technology from Star Wars and added it on the L, no matter how advance the Canarsie Line would get unless the terminals are fixed, the L will always be crowded, L riders will always have to let 4-5 trains go by and the L will always runs 4-6 headways. The (6) and & (7) lines run more frequent than the L and they dont even have CBTC!
You really need to stop exaggerating with your posts. CBTC has NOT been a total failure on the L. First of all, the L line isn't even 100% CBTC/ATO so you can't say if it's a failure or not until both of those have happened, which will be when the R160s get CBTC.
Originally Posted By: Q89LCL
well good speech the L needs its terminal Redone with more tracks and same goes for Rockaway pk.

Why do they need more tracks? They're just fine with the number of tracks they have now. They just need the tracks to extend past the station. And how does the L not need CBTC if it's one of the most crowded lines in the system? Of course it needs CBTC. The line was running at capacity and still couldn't meet passenger demand. You don't have to wait 4-5 trains to get on the L either. You don't even have to do that on the 4/5/6. You can get on the 2nd train, if not the 1st.

And the only reason the 6 and 7 have lower headways is that both of the lines run over capacity as well. Not to mention that they are basically two services combined in one, and local station headways are twice that of the headways of both lines in Manhattan.

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#491832 - 09/08/09 08:35 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: R32_3348
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Yes of course those transfers are used, but they do absolutely NOTHING to alleviate crowding on the L. If the 7/<7> had useless transfers like the L, the flushing line would be much more crowded.

If the transfers did NOTHING to help the L, then the transfers weren't used at all. These transfer points do get crowded so you can't say they don't help the L. They don't necessarily help it very much, but they still help.
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Maybe if the MTA ever figures out that the problem with L line is the terminals and the L FINALLY runs 2-3 min headway then trains should be less crowded. CBTC on the L line has obviously been a total failure ON the Canarsie Line. There is NO POINT in putting future technology on the Canarsie Line if it has prehistoric caveman terminals. For that they could have just worked on testing out CBTC on the Queens Blvd first, a line that ACTUALLY needs CBTC. I dont care if they took a time machine and got technology from Star Wars and added it on the L, no matter how advance the Canarsie Line would get unless the terminals are fixed, the L will always be crowded, L riders will always have to let 4-5 trains go by and the L will always runs 4-6 headways. The (6) and & (7) lines run more frequent than the L and they dont even have CBTC!
You really need to stop exaggerating with your posts. CBTC has NOT been a total failure on the L. First of all, the L line isn't even 100% CBTC/ATO so you can't say if it's a failure or not until both of those have happened, which will be when the R160s get CBTC.
Originally Posted By: Q89LCL
well good speech the L needs its terminal Redone with more tracks and same goes for Rockaway pk.

Why do they need more tracks? They're just fine with the number of tracks they have now. They just need the tracks to extend past the station. And how does the L not need CBTC if it's one of the most crowded lines in the system? Of course it needs CBTC. The line was running at capacity and still couldn't meet passenger demand. You don't have to wait 4-5 trains to get on the L either. You don't even have to do that on the 4/5/6. You can get on the 2nd train, if not the 1st.

And the only reason the 6 and 7 have lower headways is that both of the lines run over capacity as well. Not to mention that they are basically two services combined in one, and local station headways are twice that of the headways of both lines in Manhattan.
Originally Posted By: R32_3348
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Yes of course those transfers are used, but they do absolutely NOTHING to alleviate crowding on the L. If the 7/<7> had useless transfers like the L, the flushing line would be much more crowded.

If the transfers did NOTHING to help the L, then the transfers weren't used at all. These transfer points do get crowded so you can't say they don't help the L. They don't necessarily help it very much, but they still help.
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Maybe if the MTA ever figures out that the problem with L line is the terminals and the L FINALLY runs 2-3 min headway then trains should be less crowded. CBTC on the L line has obviously been a total failure ON the Canarsie Line. There is NO POINT in putting future technology on the Canarsie Line if it has prehistoric caveman terminals. For that they could have just worked on testing out CBTC on the Queens Blvd first, a line that ACTUALLY needs CBTC. I dont care if they took a time machine and got technology from Star Wars and added it on the L, no matter how advance the Canarsie Line would get unless the terminals are fixed, the L will always be crowded, L riders will always have to let 4-5 trains go by and the L will always runs 4-6 headways. The (6) and & (7) lines run more frequent than the L and they dont even have CBTC!
You really need to stop exaggerating with your posts. CBTC has NOT been a total failure on the L. First of all, the L line isn't even 100% CBTC/ATO so you can't say if it's a failure or not until both of those have happened, which will be when the R160s get CBTC.
Originally Posted By: Q89LCL
well good speech the L needs its terminal Redone with more tracks and same goes for Rockaway pk.

Why do they need more tracks? They're just fine with the number of tracks they have now. They just need the tracks to extend past the station. And how does the L not need CBTC if it's one of the most crowded lines in the system? Of course it needs CBTC. The line was running at capacity and still couldn't meet passenger demand. You don't have to wait 4-5 trains to get on the L either. You don't even have to do that on the 4/5/6. You can get on the 2nd train, if not the 1st.

And the only reason the 6 and 7 have lower headways is that both of the lines run over capacity as well. Not to mention that they are basically two services combined in one, and local station headways are twice that of the headways of both lines in Manhattan.


Didnt know L wasnt 100% CBTC. Thx for explaining. But still, Queens Blvd Line would have been better suited for CBTC than the Canarsie Line.

As for the transfers, while they are useful, they dont convince a lot of Canarsie riders to get off the L.

Also at Rockaway Park, i think another issue with the Canarsie terminal is that the crossing tracks or "X" tracks are too far from the Canasie terminal.

http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/bigbklyn-2.png

Correct me if im wrong but isnt this the same issue with the E train at Jamaica Center where the crossing tracks are too far from jamaica Center?

Plus the crossing track close to Rockaway Parkway only allows L trains to leave the station from the northbound track to the southbound track, but not vice versa, why they didnt build another crossing track to allow incoming L trains to switch from the northbound track to the southbound track doesnt make sense.

Overall, even though the L is heavily used, it doesnt need CBTC, at least for now. It justs needs better terminals, then that's it, problem solved. Lines that do need CBTC NOW is the Lexington Av line and the Queens Blvd Line.

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#491839 - 09/08/09 02:57 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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You are taking a limited view of the terminal at Rockaway Parkway. The terminal with its x-cross switch is also the location of the access tracks for the train yard, and the terminal platform itself. One can think of it as a large fan terminal. The terminal has the switches that it needs in the places that it needs them to accomplish its tasks.

The issue at the Jamaica Center is entirely different, in that Jamaica Center WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO BE THE TERMINAL OF THE LINE. There both the J-level, and the E-level tracks were to extend in different directions in Southern eastern Queens. The whole Queens section of the 1970's plan Second Avenue subway and its Queens section was cut into four sections. The first section was the 63rd Street tunnel which was built, and the third section was the Archer Avenue segment which was built. The MTA thought it could goad the federal gov't into paying for the other two sections to complete the whole project, the Queens Super-Express segment, and the extensions to Southern Eastern Queens. Well, the mid-1970's fiscal crisis put the kahash to that kind of arm-twisting, and the politicians in Queens - with their NIMBY actions killed the Queens Super-Express. With no new money from the feds - remember "Ford To City Drop Dead". The MTA was left to do what it could with what was built.

The federal government did give in money for the direct connection of the 63rd Street line to Queens Blvd - north of Queens Plaza - which was never in the original plans. In addition, the Archer Avenue segment was opened, as is - although it was made to work. The Archer Avenue segment as a terminal was never designed to be a terminal, that has to be understood.

CBTC was implemented on the L-line because that line is basically isolated from the rest of the system, where in theory the various complicated issues can be worked on. One tends to forget the weeks and months of bus substitutions, shuttle trains, and transfers the riders had to make while the multiple kinks were worked out. For a four-year period, the L-line was a mess while CBTC was implemented. As now some transit fan folk want to do that to Lexington Avenue or Queens Blvd, with its much higher ridership, heavy train traffic, and their coverage of large geographic areas, and relationship to the city economy. Folks have to learn their history, they really do!

Mike

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#491888 - 09/09/09 02:03 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: MikeGerald45]
R160Etrain Offline
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Regardless of the amount of the service changes that a line has to go through in order get CBTC, the Queens Blvd line is going to get CBTC eventually.

Why would the NIMBY's turn down Queens Blvd super express? That means you can get to Manhattan faster,who wouldnt want QB super express?


Also why the x-cross does allow access to the yard, why couldnt they do another x-cross switch close to Rockaway Park? Isnt that the reason why that station has a hard turning around trains? Or is it because the L train needs more space so it can pull into the faster and instead of slow like at 8 Av?


Edited by R160Etrain (09/09/09 02:04 PM)

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#491895 - 09/09/09 03:59 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
Forest Glen Offline
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They proposed extending the E/F to SE Queens. That's what the NIMBY's moaned about.
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#491899 - 09/09/09 05:07 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
R160Etrain Offline
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Would have been nice if the E/F extended all the way to Little Neck Pkwy, like it was proposed on the IND second system.

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#491931 - 09/09/09 11:27 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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At the Rockaway Parkway terminal all train movements occur on the same track level. Train movements into and out of the terminal platform area, as well as train movements into and out of the yard area all cross upon the same tracks. Thus a high level of coordination among train movements is needed. The entire area between the 105th Street station and the Rockaway Parkway station is covered with main-line tracks, a storage ladder track to the train, and switches, signal devices and other equipment among and between all of these tracks. It is a busy area.

Mike

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#491973 - 09/11/09 06:44 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: MikeGerald45]
R160Etrain Offline
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so it seems that because all of that is going its hard to turn around L train efficiently?

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#491979 - 09/11/09 11:02 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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From a previous message: "so it seems that because all of that is going its hard to turn around L train efficiently?"

I am not saying "yes" or "no".

In this case, let's define terms.

1) Are there long waits for trains to enter and leave the terminals, documented? (Especially the Rockaway Parkway terminal)

2) Are trains backed up at stations along the line due to congestion at the terminals? Is this documented?

3) What is the frequency of trains, in the real world, documented sense - during the peak travel periods? What does the printed schedule say is supposed to be the peak frequency between trains?

4) If there is congestion at the terminals (especially Rockaway Parkway), how long do such periods last? What is documented in the time records, etc?

--------

The reason that I ask for documented instances and information, is that sometimes there's a lot of transit fan emotion about an issue that can cloud the real issue. Often that can be a better way to look at a situation.

Mike

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#491992 - 09/11/09 06:14 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: MikeGerald45]
R160Etrain Offline
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well most of the time the L runs around every 5 mins, which is pretty bad for a line that doesnt merge with any other lines.

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#492007 - 09/11/09 11:15 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
Forest Glen Offline
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During rush hours L trains often run back to back. However, there are also long intervals between trains.
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#492009 - 09/11/09 11:19 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
Grand Concourse Offline
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That's not out of the ordinary. The large gap can be attributed to door holdings and other delays leading to a backing up of the overal line. It can happen to any other line.

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#492137 - 09/15/09 03:40 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
NX Sea Beach Express Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lex Express
During rush hours L trains often run back to back. However, there are also long intervals between trains.


Short-turned L's at Myrtle during the morning rush frees up needed capacity for AM peak.
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#492689 - 09/28/09 12:13 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
R32_3348 Offline
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Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Also at Rockaway Park, i think another issue with the Canarsie terminal is that the crossing tracks or "X" tracks are too far from the Canasie terminal.

http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/bigbklyn-2.png

Correct me if im wrong but isnt this the same issue with the E train at Jamaica Center where the crossing tracks are too far from jamaica Center?

Plus the crossing track close to Rockaway Parkway only allows L trains to leave the station from the northbound track to the southbound track, but not vice versa, why they didnt build another crossing track to allow incoming L trains to switch from the northbound track to the southbound track doesnt make sense.

Overall, even though the L is heavily used, it doesnt need CBTC, at least for now. It justs needs better terminals, then that's it, problem solved. Lines that do need CBTC NOW is the Lexington Av line and the Queens Blvd Line.


You would be correct about the first part. I haven't focused on the L tracks before while looking at this map, but now that I have it seems that the terminal problem at Rockaway Parkway can easily be fixed by adding another switch to make the Y crossover an X crossover. Mike detailed why the E's track is so far from the terminal, and did the same for the L.

The L was chosen for CBTC because it's an isolated line where there would be less problems systemwide, if something went wrong with CBTC in its early stages. This wouldn't be possible on the Queens Blvd. line, since a large part of the system would be affected if something went wrong. This is why the 7 is second in line for CBTC as well.

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#492745 - 09/29/09 01:47 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
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According to subchat, the Y-crossover north of Rockaway Parkway was replaced with an X-crossover sometime during the installation of CBTC, so the debate over RP being an inefficient terminal is a moot point now.

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#492762 - 09/29/09 06:48 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
R160Etrain Offline
Transportation Alternatives Organizer
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 1937
if the y crossover was replaced with the x-crossover then why are there still conga lines at rockaway parkway, or has the conga lines stopped?

What about 8 Av, is the wall the only problem with that terminal?

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#492779 - 09/30/09 09:07 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
NX Sea Beach Express Offline
Transport Workers Union Steward
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Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 1470
Loc: Brooklyn
I have to say that recently, the delays leading to 8th Ave., which at times stretched all the way back to 1st Ave., have become infrequent. So it seems that whatever was broken is now fixed.
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#496576 - 02/14/10 01:45 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
Miss W Supporter Offline
Booth Worker
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Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 737
Loc: My imaginary world
What is the Queens Super Express? Is it that large row of local stations in Queens or something that hasn't been built yet?

(sorry if I haven't read this whole thread and saw this answer) What is CBTC?
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#496614 - 02/14/10 03:24 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Miss W Supporter]
R160Etrain Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 1937
Originally Posted By: NX Sea Beach Express
I have to say that recently, the delays leading to 8th Ave., which at times stretched all the way back to 1st Ave., have become infrequent. So it seems that whatever was broken is now fixed.


Great now if the L ca ru every 2-3 mins it would be perfect.

Originally Posted By: Miss W Supporter
What is the Queens Super Express? Is it that large row of local stations in Queens or something that hasn't been built yet?

(sorry if I haven't read this whole thread and saw this answer) What is CBTC?


The Quees Blvd super express would run along the LIRR from Union Turnpike to Queens Plaza, basically skipping Forest Hills and Roosevelt Av.

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#496627 - 02/14/10 11:48 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
Miss W Supporter Offline
Booth Worker
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Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 737
Loc: My imaginary world
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Originally Posted By: NX Sea Beach Express
I have to say that recently, the delays leading to 8th Ave., which at times stretched all the way back to 1st Ave., have become infrequent. So it seems that whatever was broken is now fixed.


Great now if the L ca ru every 2-3 mins it would be perfect.

Originally Posted By: Miss W Supporter
What is the Queens Super Express? Is it that large row of local stations in Queens or something that hasn't been built yet?

(sorry if I haven't read this whole thread and saw this answer) What is CBTC?


The Quees Blvd super express would run along the LIRR from Union Turnpike to Queens Plaza, basically skipping Forest Hills and Roosevelt Av.


Ok, I see. Thanks.
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#496633 - 02/15/10 12:20 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Miss W Supporter]
toure Offline
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Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 1539
Loc: The Bronx
Yeah the Queens Super Express sounds too good to be true. The fact that they'd give it to queens sounds like a fairy tale.
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#496642 - 02/15/10 07:47 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: toure]
TwoTimer Offline
Bus Driver
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Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 459
Loc: Bronx!
Well, the QSE feeds a notion that it takes longer to commute in from Queens/LI then it does from any other geographical locale. It wasn't meant for the central/western Queens people, that's only at most 20 minutes to midtown, but those in eastern queens, where there's still in some cases miles of Queens left before even hitting Nassau, and that doesn't even include all those border towns (like Yonkers/Mount Vernon is to the Bronx) in Nassau.
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#496655 - 02/15/10 05:14 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
R32_3348 Offline
MTA Executive
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Registered: 03/25/07
Posts: 4456
Loc: Jackson Heights
Originally Posted By: Miss W Supporter
What is the Queens Super Express? Is it that large row of local stations in Queens or something that hasn't been built yet?

(sorry if I haven't read this whole thread and saw this answer) What is CBTC?

CBTC stands for Communications-Based Train Control. It's an advanced and modern signaling system that allows the MTA to track down where exactly their trains are. This allows for them to run trains more closely together without as many redundant speed limits and timers with safety in mind.
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
The Quees Blvd super express would run along the LIRR from Union Turnpike to Queens Plaza, basically skipping Forest Hills and Roosevelt Av.
IINM it was supposed to stop at Forest Hills, skipping only Roosevelt Ave., via the LIRR ROW. It was supposed to feed into the 63rd St. corridor but it never got off the table and the 63rd St. line got connected to Queens Blvd. It's main goal was to increase capacity by bypassing the Queens Bld. corridor and expand into remote areas of Queens. It wasn't supposed to really save time along Queens Blvd. since it's only skipping one stop.


Edited by R32_3348 (02/15/10 05:15 PM)

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#496661 - 02/15/10 06:06 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
Miss W Supporter Offline
Booth Worker
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Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 737
Loc: My imaginary world
Originally Posted By: R32_3348
Originally Posted By: Miss W Supporter
What is the Queens Super Express? Is it that large row of local stations in Queens or something that hasn't been built yet?

(sorry if I haven't read this whole thread and saw this answer) What is CBTC?

CBTC stands for Communications-Based Train Control. It's an advanced and modern signaling system that allows the MTA to track down where exactly their trains are. This allows for them to run trains more closely together without as many redundant speed limits and timers with safety in mind.
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
The Quees Blvd super express would run along the LIRR from Union Turnpike to Queens Plaza, basically skipping Forest Hills and Roosevelt Av.
IINM it was supposed to stop at Forest Hills, skipping only Roosevelt Ave., via the LIRR ROW. It was supposed to feed into the 63rd St. corridor but it never got off the table and the 63rd St. line got connected to Queens Blvd. It's main goal was to increase capacity by bypassing the Queens Bld. corridor and expand into remote areas of Queens. It wasn't supposed to really save time along Queens Blvd. since it's only skipping one stop.


I see,now I remember what it is, that train tracker computer screen in my station. Thanks.
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#496669 - 02/15/10 09:01 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
checkmatechamp13 Offline
Bus Driver
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 318
Loc: Planet Earth
Just 3 things:

1) Is the fact that the E has the crossover so far from Parsons Boulevard is so that it has the option of turning around at either Parsons or Sutphin Boulevards?

2) I don't know if there is enough ridership near the Queens/Nassau border to support a line and if the NIMBY's don't want it thwn it pretty much settles it. I think that the Hillside Avenue Line could be extended to Springfield Boulevard, and the Archer Avenue Line could extend along Merrick Bouevard (I don't know if it should go to Spring Acres Mall though).

3)The QB Super Express, it would only connect to the 63rd Street Line, correct? I don't know if that would be a good idea, as it would make the E the only express at Roosevelt Avenue.
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#496673 - 02/15/10 09:55 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: checkmatechamp13]
R160Etrain Offline
Transportation Alternatives Organizer
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 1937
Originally Posted By: checkmatechamp13
Just 3 things:

1) Is the fact that the E has the crossover so far from Parsons Boulevard is so that it has the option of turning around at either Parsons or Sutphin Boulevards?

2) I don't know if there is enough ridership near the Queens/Nassau border to support a line and if the NIMBY's don't want it thwn it pretty much settles it. I think that the Hillside Avenue Line could be extended to Springfield Boulevard, and the Archer Avenue Line could extend along Merrick Bouevard (I don't know if it should go to Spring Acres Mall though).

3)The QB Super Express, it would only connect to the 63rd Street Line, correct? I don't know if that would be a good idea, as it would make the E the only express at Roosevelt Avenue.


1.) Im not sure, Mike Gerald can probably shed light on this, but then again Jamica Center was never intended to be a terminal

2.) I think the ridership is there near the Queens/Nassau border. It would save a good number of people the trip of having to take the bus to Jamica Center.

3.) I dont think the QB express would be exclusive to the 63 st line, because then it would be totally useless, Any monkey with a half brain knows that the 53 st line is heavily used and that it would have been wise to connnect to the 53 st branch as well.
But then again it would have made some sense in going via 63 st that way it wouldnt have to merge back again with the E at 53 st branch.

The good thing though about the Queens Blvd super express is that it would have increased capacity and basically allowed a third express.

I mean look, the archer branch has only room for one express and the hillside 2 right? The super express would have diverged at Union Turnpike which is before the merger at 75 Av, thus negatating any further congestion.


(E)-QB express via 53 st
(F)-QB express via 53 st
(U)-QB super express 2 Avenue line via 63 st(Hillside Branch)
(R)-QB local via 60 st
(v)-QB local via 63 st

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#496678 - 02/15/10 11:28 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
TwoTimer Offline
Bus Driver
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Registered: 09/09/09
Posts: 459
Loc: Bronx!
2. The ridership is there, but NIMBY's their neighbor (lol). There is a bit of surburbanish to one of the few places in the city not near a line, and while inconvenient to those that can't afford to drive, it can be very nice. Tunnelling as we know is very expensive and probably never again will we see it outside of Manhattan.
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#496698 - 02/16/10 02:10 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: TwoTimer]
toure Offline
Transportation Alternatives Organizer
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Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 1539
Loc: The Bronx
Originally Posted By: TwoTimer
Well, the QSE feeds a notion that it takes longer to commute in from Queens/LI then it does from any other geographical locale. It wasn't meant for the central/western Queens people, that's only at most 20 minutes to midtown, but those in eastern queens, where there's still in some cases miles of Queens left before even hitting Nassau, and that doesn't even include all those border towns (like Yonkers/Mount Vernon is to the Bronx) in Nassau.



Spoken like an expert. When will this issue be resolved? When they decide to build a light rail?
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#496699 - 02/16/10 02:14 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
toure Offline
Transportation Alternatives Organizer
***

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 1539
Loc: The Bronx
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Originally Posted By: checkmatechamp13
Just 3 things:

1) Is the fact that the E has the crossover so far from Parsons Boulevard is so that it has the option of turning around at either Parsons or Sutphin Boulevards?

2) I don't know if there is enough ridership near the Queens/Nassau border to support a line and if the NIMBY's don't want it thwn it pretty much settles it. I think that the Hillside Avenue Line could be extended to Springfield Boulevard, and the Archer Avenue Line could extend along Merrick Bouevard (I don't know if it should go to Spring Acres Mall though).

3)The QB Super Express, it would only connect to the 63rd Street Line, correct? I don't know if that would be a good idea, as it would make the E the only express at Roosevelt Avenue.


1.) Im not sure, Mike Gerald can probably shed light on this, but then again Jamica Center was never intended to be a terminal

2.) I think the ridership is there near the Queens/Nassau border. It would save a good number of people the trip of having to take the bus to Jamica Center.

3.) I dont think the QB express would be exclusive to the 63 st line, because then it would be totally useless, Any monkey with a half brain knows that the 53 st line is heavily used and that it would have been wise to connnect to the 53 st branch as well.
But then again it would have made some sense in going via 63 st that way it wouldnt have to merge back again with the E at 53 st branch.

The good thing though about the Queens Blvd super express is that it would have increased capacity and basically allowed a third express.

I mean look, the archer branch has only room for one express and the hillside 2 right? The super express would have diverged at Union Turnpike which is before the merger at 75 Av, thus negatating any further congestion.


(E)-QB express via 53 st
(F)-QB express via 53 st
(U)-QB super express 2 Avenue line via 63 st(Hillside Branch)
(R)-QB local via 60 st
(v)-QB local via 63 st


Wow I only wish they'd do this!
_________________________
[[I HEART R68'S]]

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#497096 - 03/04/10 08:36 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: toure]
R32_3348 Offline
MTA Executive
****

Registered: 03/25/07
Posts: 4456
Loc: Jackson Heights
Originally Posted By: checkmatechamp13
Just 3 things:

1) Is the fact that the E has the crossover so far from Parsons Boulevard is so that it has the option of turning around at either Parsons or Sutphin Boulevards?

2) I don't know if there is enough ridership near the Queens/Nassau border to support a line and if the NIMBY's don't want it thwn it pretty much settles it. I think that the Hillside Avenue Line could be extended to Springfield Boulevard, and the Archer Avenue Line could extend along Merrick Bouevard (I don't know if it should go to Spring Acres Mall though).

3)The QB Super Express, it would only connect to the 63rd Street Line, correct? I don't know if that would be a good idea, as it would make the E the only express at Roosevelt Avenue.

The terminal at Parsons-Archer was never intended to be a terminal to begin with, so that crossover was not meant to be right next to Parsons Blvd. The line was supposed to extend further into Queens via Merrick Blvd. so the ridership was and is there. There was/is? considerable NIMBY opposition though so it won't go through now (this doesn't necessarily have to apply to the future).

A Queens Super Express would be two new tracks, which would be a considerable cost only to serve the same areas in Queens. I think that money would be better spent extending lines or creating new ones in other areas of Queens that currently don't have access to subway service (i.e. the E via Merrick Blvd., if there was no community opposition).


Edited by R32_3348 (03/04/10 08:36 PM)

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