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#491839 - 09/08/09 02:57 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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You are taking a limited view of the terminal at Rockaway Parkway. The terminal with its x-cross switch is also the location of the access tracks for the train yard, and the terminal platform itself. One can think of it as a large fan terminal. The terminal has the switches that it needs in the places that it needs them to accomplish its tasks.

The issue at the Jamaica Center is entirely different, in that Jamaica Center WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO BE THE TERMINAL OF THE LINE. There both the J-level, and the E-level tracks were to extend in different directions in Southern eastern Queens. The whole Queens section of the 1970's plan Second Avenue subway and its Queens section was cut into four sections. The first section was the 63rd Street tunnel which was built, and the third section was the Archer Avenue segment which was built. The MTA thought it could goad the federal gov't into paying for the other two sections to complete the whole project, the Queens Super-Express segment, and the extensions to Southern Eastern Queens. Well, the mid-1970's fiscal crisis put the kahash to that kind of arm-twisting, and the politicians in Queens - with their NIMBY actions killed the Queens Super-Express. With no new money from the feds - remember "Ford To City Drop Dead". The MTA was left to do what it could with what was built.

The federal government did give in money for the direct connection of the 63rd Street line to Queens Blvd - north of Queens Plaza - which was never in the original plans. In addition, the Archer Avenue segment was opened, as is - although it was made to work. The Archer Avenue segment as a terminal was never designed to be a terminal, that has to be understood.

CBTC was implemented on the L-line because that line is basically isolated from the rest of the system, where in theory the various complicated issues can be worked on. One tends to forget the weeks and months of bus substitutions, shuttle trains, and transfers the riders had to make while the multiple kinks were worked out. For a four-year period, the L-line was a mess while CBTC was implemented. As now some transit fan folk want to do that to Lexington Avenue or Queens Blvd, with its much higher ridership, heavy train traffic, and their coverage of large geographic areas, and relationship to the city economy. Folks have to learn their history, they really do!

Mike

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#491888 - 09/09/09 02:03 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: MikeGerald45]
R160Etrain Offline
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Regardless of the amount of the service changes that a line has to go through in order get CBTC, the Queens Blvd line is going to get CBTC eventually.

Why would the NIMBY's turn down Queens Blvd super express? That means you can get to Manhattan faster,who wouldnt want QB super express?


Also why the x-cross does allow access to the yard, why couldnt they do another x-cross switch close to Rockaway Park? Isnt that the reason why that station has a hard turning around trains? Or is it because the L train needs more space so it can pull into the faster and instead of slow like at 8 Av?


Edited by R160Etrain (09/09/09 02:04 PM)

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#491895 - 09/09/09 03:59 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
Forest Glen Offline
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They proposed extending the E/F to SE Queens. That's what the NIMBY's moaned about.
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#491899 - 09/09/09 05:07 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
R160Etrain Offline
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Would have been nice if the E/F extended all the way to Little Neck Pkwy, like it was proposed on the IND second system.

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#491931 - 09/09/09 11:27 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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At the Rockaway Parkway terminal all train movements occur on the same track level. Train movements into and out of the terminal platform area, as well as train movements into and out of the yard area all cross upon the same tracks. Thus a high level of coordination among train movements is needed. The entire area between the 105th Street station and the Rockaway Parkway station is covered with main-line tracks, a storage ladder track to the train, and switches, signal devices and other equipment among and between all of these tracks. It is a busy area.

Mike

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#491973 - 09/11/09 06:44 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: MikeGerald45]
R160Etrain Offline
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so it seems that because all of that is going its hard to turn around L train efficiently?

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#491979 - 09/11/09 11:02 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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From a previous message: "so it seems that because all of that is going its hard to turn around L train efficiently?"

I am not saying "yes" or "no".

In this case, let's define terms.

1) Are there long waits for trains to enter and leave the terminals, documented? (Especially the Rockaway Parkway terminal)

2) Are trains backed up at stations along the line due to congestion at the terminals? Is this documented?

3) What is the frequency of trains, in the real world, documented sense - during the peak travel periods? What does the printed schedule say is supposed to be the peak frequency between trains?

4) If there is congestion at the terminals (especially Rockaway Parkway), how long do such periods last? What is documented in the time records, etc?

--------

The reason that I ask for documented instances and information, is that sometimes there's a lot of transit fan emotion about an issue that can cloud the real issue. Often that can be a better way to look at a situation.

Mike

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#491992 - 09/11/09 06:14 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: MikeGerald45]
R160Etrain Offline
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well most of the time the L runs around every 5 mins, which is pretty bad for a line that doesnt merge with any other lines.

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#492007 - 09/11/09 11:15 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
Forest Glen Offline
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During rush hours L trains often run back to back. However, there are also long intervals between trains.
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#492009 - 09/11/09 11:19 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
Grand Concourse Offline
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That's not out of the ordinary. The large gap can be attributed to door holdings and other delays leading to a backing up of the overal line. It can happen to any other line.

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#492137 - 09/15/09 03:40 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Forest Glen]
NX Sea Beach Express Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lex Express
During rush hours L trains often run back to back. However, there are also long intervals between trains.


Short-turned L's at Myrtle during the morning rush frees up needed capacity for AM peak.
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#492689 - 09/28/09 12:13 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
R32_3348 Offline
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Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Also at Rockaway Park, i think another issue with the Canarsie terminal is that the crossing tracks or "X" tracks are too far from the Canasie terminal.

http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/bigbklyn-2.png

Correct me if im wrong but isnt this the same issue with the E train at Jamaica Center where the crossing tracks are too far from jamaica Center?

Plus the crossing track close to Rockaway Parkway only allows L trains to leave the station from the northbound track to the southbound track, but not vice versa, why they didnt build another crossing track to allow incoming L trains to switch from the northbound track to the southbound track doesnt make sense.

Overall, even though the L is heavily used, it doesnt need CBTC, at least for now. It justs needs better terminals, then that's it, problem solved. Lines that do need CBTC NOW is the Lexington Av line and the Queens Blvd Line.


You would be correct about the first part. I haven't focused on the L tracks before while looking at this map, but now that I have it seems that the terminal problem at Rockaway Parkway can easily be fixed by adding another switch to make the Y crossover an X crossover. Mike detailed why the E's track is so far from the terminal, and did the same for the L.

The L was chosen for CBTC because it's an isolated line where there would be less problems systemwide, if something went wrong with CBTC in its early stages. This wouldn't be possible on the Queens Blvd. line, since a large part of the system would be affected if something went wrong. This is why the 7 is second in line for CBTC as well.

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#492745 - 09/29/09 01:47 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
R32_3348 Offline
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According to subchat, the Y-crossover north of Rockaway Parkway was replaced with an X-crossover sometime during the installation of CBTC, so the debate over RP being an inefficient terminal is a moot point now.

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#492762 - 09/29/09 06:48 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
R160Etrain Offline
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if the y crossover was replaced with the x-crossover then why are there still conga lines at rockaway parkway, or has the conga lines stopped?

What about 8 Av, is the wall the only problem with that terminal?

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#492779 - 09/30/09 09:07 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
NX Sea Beach Express Offline
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I have to say that recently, the delays leading to 8th Ave., which at times stretched all the way back to 1st Ave., have become infrequent. So it seems that whatever was broken is now fixed.
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#496576 - 02/14/10 01:45 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
Miss W Supporter Offline
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What is the Queens Super Express? Is it that large row of local stations in Queens or something that hasn't been built yet?

(sorry if I haven't read this whole thread and saw this answer) What is CBTC?
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#496614 - 02/14/10 03:24 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Miss W Supporter]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: NX Sea Beach Express
I have to say that recently, the delays leading to 8th Ave., which at times stretched all the way back to 1st Ave., have become infrequent. So it seems that whatever was broken is now fixed.


Great now if the L ca ru every 2-3 mins it would be perfect.

Originally Posted By: Miss W Supporter
What is the Queens Super Express? Is it that large row of local stations in Queens or something that hasn't been built yet?

(sorry if I haven't read this whole thread and saw this answer) What is CBTC?


The Quees Blvd super express would run along the LIRR from Union Turnpike to Queens Plaza, basically skipping Forest Hills and Roosevelt Av.

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#496627 - 02/14/10 11:48 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
Miss W Supporter Offline
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Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Originally Posted By: NX Sea Beach Express
I have to say that recently, the delays leading to 8th Ave., which at times stretched all the way back to 1st Ave., have become infrequent. So it seems that whatever was broken is now fixed.


Great now if the L ca ru every 2-3 mins it would be perfect.

Originally Posted By: Miss W Supporter
What is the Queens Super Express? Is it that large row of local stations in Queens or something that hasn't been built yet?

(sorry if I haven't read this whole thread and saw this answer) What is CBTC?


The Quees Blvd super express would run along the LIRR from Union Turnpike to Queens Plaza, basically skipping Forest Hills and Roosevelt Av.


Ok, I see. Thanks.
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#496633 - 02/15/10 12:20 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: Miss W Supporter]
toure Offline
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Yeah the Queens Super Express sounds too good to be true. The fact that they'd give it to queens sounds like a fairy tale.
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#496642 - 02/15/10 07:47 AM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: toure]
TwoTimer Offline
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Well, the QSE feeds a notion that it takes longer to commute in from Queens/LI then it does from any other geographical locale. It wasn't meant for the central/western Queens people, that's only at most 20 minutes to midtown, but those in eastern queens, where there's still in some cases miles of Queens left before even hitting Nassau, and that doesn't even include all those border towns (like Yonkers/Mount Vernon is to the Bronx) in Nassau.
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#496655 - 02/15/10 05:14 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
R32_3348 Offline
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Registered: 03/25/07
Posts: 4456
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Originally Posted By: Miss W Supporter
What is the Queens Super Express? Is it that large row of local stations in Queens or something that hasn't been built yet?

(sorry if I haven't read this whole thread and saw this answer) What is CBTC?

CBTC stands for Communications-Based Train Control. It's an advanced and modern signaling system that allows the MTA to track down where exactly their trains are. This allows for them to run trains more closely together without as many redundant speed limits and timers with safety in mind.
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
The Quees Blvd super express would run along the LIRR from Union Turnpike to Queens Plaza, basically skipping Forest Hills and Roosevelt Av.
IINM it was supposed to stop at Forest Hills, skipping only Roosevelt Ave., via the LIRR ROW. It was supposed to feed into the 63rd St. corridor but it never got off the table and the 63rd St. line got connected to Queens Blvd. It's main goal was to increase capacity by bypassing the Queens Bld. corridor and expand into remote areas of Queens. It wasn't supposed to really save time along Queens Blvd. since it's only skipping one stop.


Edited by R32_3348 (02/15/10 05:15 PM)

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#496661 - 02/15/10 06:06 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R32_3348]
Miss W Supporter Offline
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Registered: 08/12/03
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Originally Posted By: R32_3348
Originally Posted By: Miss W Supporter
What is the Queens Super Express? Is it that large row of local stations in Queens or something that hasn't been built yet?

(sorry if I haven't read this whole thread and saw this answer) What is CBTC?

CBTC stands for Communications-Based Train Control. It's an advanced and modern signaling system that allows the MTA to track down where exactly their trains are. This allows for them to run trains more closely together without as many redundant speed limits and timers with safety in mind.
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
The Quees Blvd super express would run along the LIRR from Union Turnpike to Queens Plaza, basically skipping Forest Hills and Roosevelt Av.
IINM it was supposed to stop at Forest Hills, skipping only Roosevelt Ave., via the LIRR ROW. It was supposed to feed into the 63rd St. corridor but it never got off the table and the 63rd St. line got connected to Queens Blvd. It's main goal was to increase capacity by bypassing the Queens Bld. corridor and expand into remote areas of Queens. It wasn't supposed to really save time along Queens Blvd. since it's only skipping one stop.


I see,now I remember what it is, that train tracker computer screen in my station. Thanks.
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#496669 - 02/15/10 09:01 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
checkmatechamp13 Offline
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Just 3 things:

1) Is the fact that the E has the crossover so far from Parsons Boulevard is so that it has the option of turning around at either Parsons or Sutphin Boulevards?

2) I don't know if there is enough ridership near the Queens/Nassau border to support a line and if the NIMBY's don't want it thwn it pretty much settles it. I think that the Hillside Avenue Line could be extended to Springfield Boulevard, and the Archer Avenue Line could extend along Merrick Bouevard (I don't know if it should go to Spring Acres Mall though).

3)The QB Super Express, it would only connect to the 63rd Street Line, correct? I don't know if that would be a good idea, as it would make the E the only express at Roosevelt Avenue.
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#496673 - 02/15/10 09:55 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: checkmatechamp13]
R160Etrain Offline
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Originally Posted By: checkmatechamp13
Just 3 things:

1) Is the fact that the E has the crossover so far from Parsons Boulevard is so that it has the option of turning around at either Parsons or Sutphin Boulevards?

2) I don't know if there is enough ridership near the Queens/Nassau border to support a line and if the NIMBY's don't want it thwn it pretty much settles it. I think that the Hillside Avenue Line could be extended to Springfield Boulevard, and the Archer Avenue Line could extend along Merrick Bouevard (I don't know if it should go to Spring Acres Mall though).

3)The QB Super Express, it would only connect to the 63rd Street Line, correct? I don't know if that would be a good idea, as it would make the E the only express at Roosevelt Avenue.


1.) Im not sure, Mike Gerald can probably shed light on this, but then again Jamica Center was never intended to be a terminal

2.) I think the ridership is there near the Queens/Nassau border. It would save a good number of people the trip of having to take the bus to Jamica Center.

3.) I dont think the QB express would be exclusive to the 63 st line, because then it would be totally useless, Any monkey with a half brain knows that the 53 st line is heavily used and that it would have been wise to connnect to the 53 st branch as well.
But then again it would have made some sense in going via 63 st that way it wouldnt have to merge back again with the E at 53 st branch.

The good thing though about the Queens Blvd super express is that it would have increased capacity and basically allowed a third express.

I mean look, the archer branch has only room for one express and the hillside 2 right? The super express would have diverged at Union Turnpike which is before the merger at 75 Av, thus negatating any further congestion.


(E)-QB express via 53 st
(F)-QB express via 53 st
(U)-QB super express 2 Avenue line via 63 st(Hillside Branch)
(R)-QB local via 60 st
(v)-QB local via 63 st

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#496678 - 02/15/10 11:28 PM Re: An (L) Line What If? [Re: R160Etrain]
TwoTimer Offline
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2. The ridership is there, but NIMBY's their neighbor (lol). There is a bit of surburbanish to one of the few places in the city not near a line, and while inconvenient to those that can't afford to drive, it can be very nice. Tunnelling as we know is very expensive and probably never again will we see it outside of Manhattan.
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