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#449391 - 10/03/08 04:08 PM Service Proposal
NX Sea Beach Express Offline
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Posts: 1470
Loc: Brooklyn
This is sort of being discussed in other threads, but because of the interest, I thought a separate thread, accompanied by a proposal, was called for.

For rush hour, a hybrid skip stop/short turn. For every 3 L's:

1. Skip stop A east of myrtle
2. Skip stop B east of myrtle
3. Eastern terminus at myrtle

A Stops (east of Myrtle)

Halsey
Bushwick
B'way Junction
Sutter
New Lots
Canarsie

B Service

Wilson
B'way Junction
Atlantic
Livonia
E 105
Canarsie
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#449397 - 10/03/08 04:20 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
G_Crosstown Offline
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Registered: 08/08/08
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Skip stop service is only an illusion of faster service because wait times are now twice as long. The easiest method of improving L servie is jsut to short run some trains at BWay Junction, the third track there was built for just that purpose. My grand plan for the L was to have it run like it does normally, but on rush hours all L trains are short run at BWay junction and the Z makes all stops from BWay Junction to Canarsie and then runs express in peak direction from BWay junction to Marcy.

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#449442 - 10/03/08 08:26 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: G_Crosstown]
MATHA531 Offline
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We keep coming up with short changing the riders out of RP....the trans are full leaving RP and justify the current headways...I pointed out there is really no big advantage as far as providing service to short turning the trains at Myrtle (incidentally, there is no longer the ability to short turn at BJ, there are only two tracks there and much of the structure at Atlantic is history)...

Again, trains leaving RP are pretty full, they do empty out a bit at BJ so as the trains approach Myrtle they're not all that crowded. If we agree that there is absolutely no further room to shorten the headway further, mostly because of the incompetence in turing trains at 8th Avenue and at RP which causes big back ups, then what does short turning at Myrtle do?

I seem to be missing something

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#449479 - 10/04/08 01:01 AM Re: Service Proposal [Re: MATHA531]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Well isn't the MTA 'more concerned about Manhattan riders'? So they short turn some L trains to return them back to 8th Av. What's so complicated?

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#449487 - 10/04/08 01:14 AM Re: Service Proposal [Re: Grand Concourse]
johnnelson Offline
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Registered: 07/28/08
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i agree 8av doesnt turn trains quick enough its not like its a tough realy either like a 179st or continental there should be quick relays

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#449488 - 10/04/08 01:19 AM Re: Service Proposal [Re: johnnelson]
Grand Concourse Offline
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The problem with 8th Av is that the stop blocks are at the very end of the station. Unlike the 7 at TS-42nd where it is at least a full train length from the end of the platform, the L has to slow down entering the station. The 7 however can speed into the station as if it was just another station.

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#449546 - 10/04/08 05:56 AM Re: Service Proposal [Re: Grand Concourse]
MATHA531 Offline
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I don't know where the blocks are is the problem....there never seems to be a hurry in getting trains into and out of 8th Avenue and Rockaway Parkway...trains comes in, empty it, move the train back out.

I've been on trains heading for RP where you crawl from Livonia on...we get to East 105th Street and this has happened and up ahead both tracks at RP are in use...we wait and one train leaves RP...but instead of putting us into RP, the dispatcher holds the train with live passengers, several minutes later the other train leaves RP and then and only then lets the waiting train in...seen it happen more than once. The trains with the live passengers should take precedence but that simple fact simply doesn't register on those dispatching the trains.

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#449597 - 10/04/08 06:10 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: MATHA531]
R32_3348 Offline
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Registered: 03/25/07
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Loc: Jackson Heights
 Originally Posted By: MATHA531
I don't know where the blocks are is the problem....there never seems to be a hurry in getting trains into and out of 8th Avenue and Rockaway Parkway...trains comes in, empty it, move the train back out.

I've been on trains heading for RP where you crawl from Livonia on...we get to East 105th Street and this has happened and up ahead both tracks at RP are in use...we wait and one train leaves RP...but instead of putting us into RP, the dispatcher holds the train with live passengers, several minutes later the other train leaves RP and then and only then lets the waiting train in...seen it happen more than once. The trains with the live passengers should take precedence but that simple fact simply doesn't register on those dispatching the trains.

I've heard it was because CBTC keeps that train there due to a red signal, and the T/Os have to obey the signal system in place.

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#449598 - 10/04/08 06:11 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: johnnelson]
R32_3348 Offline
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Registered: 03/25/07
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Loc: Jackson Heights
 Originally Posted By: johnnelson
i agree 8av doesnt turn trains quick enough its not like its a tough realy either like a 179st or continental there should be quick relays

Continental Ave. isn't that great a terminal; often theres a conga line on the E/B track reachig as far as Woodhaven or 63rd.

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#449606 - 10/04/08 07:00 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: R32_3348]
johnnelson Offline
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thats what im saying its a bad relay point 71st and continental

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#449915 - 10/06/08 12:23 AM Re: Service Proposal [Re: R32_3348]
Grand Concourse Offline
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 Originally Posted By: R32_3348
 Originally Posted By: johnnelson
i agree 8av doesnt turn trains quick enough its not like its a tough realy either like a 179st or continental there should be quick relays

Continental Ave. isn't that great a terminal; often theres a conga line on the E/B track reachig as far as Woodhaven or 63rd.
Well crews have to go thru each car to make sure no passengers are on the train before relaying back so that's really going to tie up service. Obviously if they were to send 1 or 2 locals past that station every once in a while the situation won't be too bad.

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#454960 - 11/07/08 02:59 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
EE Broadway Local Offline

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Posts: 9606
Loc: Arizona, U.S.A.
 Originally Posted By: NX Sea Beach Express
This is sort of being discussed in other threads, but because of the interest, I thought a separate thread, accompanied by a proposal, was called for. For rush hour, a hybrid skip stop/short turn. For every 3 L's: 1. Skip stop A east of myrtle 2. Skip stop B east of myrtle 3. Eastern terminus at myrtle A Stops (east of Myrtle) Halsey Bushwick B'way Junction Sutter New Lots Canarsie B Service Wilson B'way Junction Atlantic Livonia E 105 Canarsie
Would this be part of the proposed/planned new (U) train?
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#454972 - 11/07/08 04:52 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: EE Broadway Local]
Q89LCL Offline


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Posts: 3026
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yes i think it would bcus the(U) is the revoultionary idea to help the L line with crouding and the headways and the l needs all the help it can get
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#456481 - 11/17/08 10:08 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: Q89LCL]
R160Etrain Offline
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What is with people with this short turn garbage???????
Just implement skip-stop service and make (L)/(K) trains run FULL CAPACITY!!!!!!
And people need to stop saying that skip-stop service just doubles the time.
this is a STUPID AND WEAK assumption about skip-stop service. Just implement the right trains at the right stations at full capacity , like the (E)/(F)
and make a LOOP AT 8 AVENUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#456493 - 11/17/08 11:06 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: R160Etrain]
R32_3348 Offline
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Loc: Jackson Heights
How is that a stupid and weak argument? You haven't refuted it at all yet. If you double headways then the crowds will be twice as large. Even if you get which trains serve which stations right, that doesn't do anything to adress the crowding if trains don't come frequently enough. How is the E/F a comparison? Expresses are very different from skip-stop. If F trains served Union Turnpike and Roosevelt ave, while E trains served Forest hills and Queens Plaza, would you be for it? OF COURSE NOT

And HOW exactly do you propose to build a loop at 8th avenue? Putting a station on a loop dfeats the whole purpose of the loop's time savings. You'd need timers and gap fillers which negate these time savings. Not to mention the hundreds of millions it would take to build a new station.

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#456511 - 11/18/08 01:11 AM Re: Service Proposal [Re: R32_3348]
Q89LCL Offline


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the loop can be made
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#456614 - 11/18/08 07:52 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: Q89LCL]
R32_3348 Offline
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How? You'd have to cut off service for months, at least on the weekends. You'd have to terminate trains somewhere else in Manhattan.

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#456670 - 11/19/08 12:48 AM Re: Service Proposal [Re: R32_3348]
Q89LCL Offline


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Posts: 3026
Loc: Brooklyn,NY
i think up to 6 ave its ok for the work
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#456795 - 11/20/08 05:37 AM Re: Service Proposal [Re: R32_3348]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 18592
Loc: Manhattan
 Originally Posted By: R32_3348
How is that a stupid and weak argument? You haven't refuted it at all yet. If you double headways then the crowds will be twice as large. Even if you get which trains serve which stations right, that doesn't do anything to adress the crowding if trains don't come frequently enough. How is the E/F a comparison? Expresses are very different from skip-stop. If F trains served Union Turnpike and Roosevelt ave, while E trains served Forest hills and Queens Plaza, would you be for it? OF COURSE NOT

And HOW exactly do you propose to build a loop at 8th avenue? Putting a station on a loop dfeats the whole purpose of the loop's time savings. You'd need timers and gap fillers which negate these time savings. Not to mention the hundreds of millions it would take to build a new station.
He must live in his own fantasy world to think this skip stop idea would work for the L. [Read the skip stop thread just below this thread for my reply about why only the J/Z works.]

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#459783 - 12/13/08 10:53 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: R160Etrain]
lennyj17 Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 180
Loc: Bay Ridge
 Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
What is with people with this short turn garbage???????
Just implement skip-stop service and make (L)/(K) trains run FULL CAPACITY!!!!!!
And people need to stop saying that skip-stop service just doubles the time.
this is a STUPID AND WEAK assumption about skip-stop service. Just implement the right trains at the right stations at full capacity , like the (E)/(F)
and make a LOOP AT 8 AVENUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I see we have this argument again!

R160E - Buddy you need to cool off and get some fresh air, you couldn't be more wrong!

I will repeat myself just because this is a new thread - OK Here goes..And I'm basing this on CURRENT REALITIES of the MTA, NOT SOME HYPOTHECIAL WISHFUL THINKING!

1 - You CANNOT "once again" ABSOLUTELY CANNOT have SKIP-A-STOP on the L because to do so would require more train set on the L line - The L line CANNOT handle more train sets because its terminals CANNOT CANNOT CANNOT Turn the trains quick enough..

2 - If you try SKIP-A-STOP with the current train sets, you asking for KAOS at stations West of Myrtle (as far west as 3 AV), you will have dangerous conditions at station that remind me of the 53rd/Lex Pre V-Days...YOU DONT WANT THIS!

3 - Short Turning at Myrtle is the MOST SANE and Logical idea (AGAIN WE'RE USING REALTIES HERE, NOT WISH LISTS) to control the crowds WEST of Myrtle.

4 - AGAIN we're not talking about every other L to short turn... We're only taking every 3 L train and turning it short...This would still provide adequate service to East of Myrtle (Please stop with the East of Myrtle is as busy as West...NO ITS NOT, Nowhere near)


Again this is the only LOGICAL plan to alleviate the Crowds....The SKIP-A-STOP is PIPE DREAM that'll never happen..So please STOP!


Edited by lennyj17 (12/13/08 10:54 PM)
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#459784 - 12/13/08 11:16 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: Q89LCL]
lennyj17 Offline
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Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 180
Loc: Bay Ridge
 Originally Posted By: Q89LCL
the loop can be made


This notion of build a Loop @ 8 AV - is laughable- Lets all just wave out Magic Wands and make a loop appear.

I mean are we talking about the same MTA because I feel like there's another MTA of NYC expolding with cash the way you guys talk...

The MTA I know, use, and read about every day is the one that has a $10bn deficit, is planning 3$ fares, CUTTING SERVICE on most lines, not mention CANT EVEN GET 10 BLOCKS of the SAS completed...And you want them to build a LOOP for the L! Not a snowflakes chance in HELL!! you have a better chance of them extending the L to 12 Av before a insignificant loop is installed.

I'm sorry if I sound condescending in all this, but you guy keep posting these Outragous DREAMS that'll never happen...This is the MTA where talking about here the same one that claim.
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#459794 - 12/14/08 12:33 AM Re: Service Proposal [Re: lennyj17]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Lol, lenny, you are not condescending, you are trying to give rational reasons why their fantasy ideas won't work.

And the loop idea is totally absurd. All that's needed is to extend the tracks about maybe 200-300' beyond the current platform to allow a train to enter 8th Av at a reasonable speed rather than to crawl into the station like it does now.

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#462536 - 01/02/09 09:33 PM Re: Service Proposal [Re: Grand Concourse]
R32_3348 Offline
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Registered: 03/25/07
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Loc: Jackson Heights
NO GRAND CONCOURSE YOU ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG THE LOOP ISNT A BAD IDEA AND LENNYJ WHO WHO IS JUST WRONG WRONG WRONG JUST RUN THE L/K FULL CAPACITY ALREADY AND FIRE THE MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*waves magic wand*

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