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#410331 - 02/29/08 04:04 PM Re: (J)(M)(Z) Which, If Any Might You Like To See? [Re: Grand Concourse]
EE Broadway Local Offline

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Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 9606
Loc: Arizona, U.S.A.
Question? On weekends/holidays, is there much activity around the Broad Street and Fulton Street (J)(M)(Z) stations or are nearby stations enough for the activity that does go on?
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#410406 - 02/29/08 09:02 PM Re: (J)(M)(Z) Which, If Any Might You Like To See? [Re: W Broadway Local]
cda Offline
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Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 249
Loc: East Williamsburg
 Originally Posted By: W Broadway Local

A M/V merge isn't good for various reasons. I mentioned this plenty of times and people overlook it.

The Queens Blvd line needs a full train set.. particular the 53rd Street corridor needs it the because of where those exits are.

The amount of service that is needed on Queens Blvd isn't necessarily needed on Metropolitan Avenue. This is complicated by a train crossing in front of major traffic. Reducing service to accommodate this arraignment just won't do.

People will continue to use the "L" because it is more direct and it connects with all the lines in Manhattan. A M/V merge doesn't come close to that.

And.... A passenger traveling times on the M/V merge will actually increase due to slower speeds because of multiple curves and switches. Forget about the fact that it now has to wait for a merging "F" train.

Talk about offending Metropolitan passengers... This is just a spell of disaster. Queens Blvd lines experiences delays quite often due signal issues and broken rail. It just not a sound idea!

And most of all, it will eliminate the possibility of creating a more favorable express service via culver. There are proposals on the table right now to introduce this kind of service. What do ou say to those passengers?


just for fun i will refute these as requested ;\)

* QB needs a full train set:
already refuted, V trains are nowhere near full due to the "expressaholic" nature of queens residents.

* service amounts differ on QB local vs. metropolitan;
* QB line has many delays:
you can have some M/V's from QB still terminate at 2nd avenue. this would allow for proper headways along broadway in brooklyn as well as allow for flexibility in which trains leave their terminal at which times. e.g., if there are delays on QB (result: fewer TPH reaching 6th av) you can send more of the trains down to metropolitan - then on catchup more will terminate at 2 av to thin out service along bway bklyn again.

* M/V merge is not as useful as the L:
the only trains that the L can transfer easily to that the V cannot are the 4/5/6 (below 51st), and those riders can transfer to a J for that (or use SAS of course, if that is ever built). or of course you could just transfer to the L as you used to, an M/V would not eliminate this option \:\)

* M/V's will run at slower speeds due to track crossings:
i am not convinced of this, there is just one extra merge in either direction.

* it will destroy the chance of a culver express:
this is just not true, you can very easily have an <F> or the like without needing the V (see below).

now, all i need is an emoticon of someone beating a dead horse... ;\)


some related ideas...

i've stated elsewhere that the best way to make up for the loss of M on west end service is to extend some W trains rush hours (this is again flexible because you can send just as many trains down that line as you need, and terminate the rest at whitehall).

for F express: trains on the local tracks can turn around after church avenue without any crossovers - this is how the G would turn around when it is extended there. so you could have a V (assuming the M/V is called the M) that would terminate at church daytime and go local up to manhattan (where exactly is a point of discussion, although it is probably needed on QB exp, perhaps it can go there via 53rd depending on service levels). then the express F would skip bergen, carroll, smith, 4th, 15th, and fort hamilton pkwy and continue on to coney island via local.

you could also do some wacky stuff at this point like run G trains via express from 18th and terminate at kings highway (skipping I, bay pkwy, N and P). it would depend on how much service is needed along the culver branch (but from my experience PM rush the train basically empties out at 7th)

the alternative to the plan 2 paragraphs above is to have the express terminate at kings hwy, and run only in the peak direction from KH to church. what i prefer about the above though is that express service is generally most useful for those that live further out, so you would want coney island passengers to be able to use the express without a transfer.

and that's my spew for this evening... ;\)
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#410408 - 02/29/08 09:16 PM Re: (J)(M)(Z) Which, If Any Might You Like To See? [Re: cda]
cda Offline
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Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 249
Loc: East Williamsburg
 Originally Posted By: cda

for F express: trains on the local tracks can turn around after church avenue without any crossovers - this is how the G would turn around when it is extended there. so you could have a V (assuming the M/V is called the M) that would terminate at church daytime and go local up to manhattan (where exactly is a point of discussion, although it is probably needed on QB exp, perhaps it can go there via 53rd depending on service levels).


just thought - this would even allow M trains to go express on QB and these new V's to go local... different options for 63rd/53rd st tunnels... the possibilities are quite varied \:\)

and yes i know it looks like a lot of traffic to send "3 lines" down 6th av local, but i would just have the V be a supplement to F service essentially... (i.e. some F's are called V) and the M replaces the current V.
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#410409 - 02/29/08 09:20 PM Re: (J)(M)(Z) Which, If Any Might You Like To See? [Re: cda]
cda Offline
Straphanger
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Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 249
Loc: East Williamsburg
 Originally Posted By: cda

you could also do some wacky stuff at this point like run G trains via express from 18th and terminate at kings highway (skipping I, bay pkwy, N and P). it would depend on how much service is needed along the culver branch (but from my experience PM rush the train basically empties out at 7th)


actually this is kinda dumb as i read it over... but you could have G trains terminate at 18th rush hours if church layover space became tight...
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#410477 - 03/01/08 02:31 AM Re: (J)(M)(Z) Which, If Any Might You Like To See? [Re: EE Broadway Local]
Forest Glen Offline
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Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 19171
Loc: Springfield Gardens, Queens
 Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local
Question? On weekends/holidays, is there much activity around the Broad Street and Fulton Street (J)(M)(Z) stations or are nearby stations enough for the activity that does go on?


The Wall Street area is a ghost town on weekends. However, Fulton Street is a busy transfer point.
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#418617 - 04/22/08 09:20 PM Re: (J)(M)(Z) Which, If Any Might You Like To See? [Re: cotb16]
ragazzapazza1024 Offline
"The Mole" Boring Machine Operator
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Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 865
Loc: Queens/Brooklyn border
I like the idea of expanding the J to Merrick and Archer. That is a huge transfer point, and there should be one train there.
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#418912 - 04/25/08 12:38 AM Re: (J)(M)(Z) Which, If Any Might You Like To See? [Re: FamousNYLover]
W Broadway Local Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 733
Loc: Astoria
I know what you mean. It wasn't a real good alternative. R train people weren't use to the crowds and the fact that the trains travel slower. J train people didn't care too much, because they became accustom to the delays, which are frequent on the line. But not too many saw an extended "J" as a benefit.

On the other hand, people welcome the new changes on the Broadway line. Out with the redundant N/R and in with the "Q" and "W" lines.

At the time, the "W" was the Broadway local and the "Q" was the Broadway express. You did not wait long for them and passengers were happy with the changes.

The "Q" was extended into Queens Blvd. Trains ran every 2 minutes the least. It was a dream come true for everyone traveling in these corridors.

The same thing could be said about the extended "E" via Fulton Street. For every one "A" train, there was 3 "E" trains. If you missed one, you were sure to get another one.

Passengers who normally transfer to the next "A" express, just sticked with the "E" because rarely did an "A" pass it.

Of course you might imagine the trains ran empty most of their route.

In short, the "Q" is still the premier subway line serving the Broadway corridor. It runs the most frequently with the less delays. But it can get crowded sometime, so... watch your step.

PS: The "W" line had several purposes before it became the Broadway local. Consider it a line that was trying to find it identity. Of course, you can say that about the "Q" line as well.
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