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#404400 - 01/30/08 10:20 PM # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan?
Aman Offline
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Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Manhattan
Hi,

why not improve service and have 6 Bronx express run express on tracks of # 4 & 5 in Manhatan?
Then no mad rush switching trains at 125 street.

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#404403 - 01/30/08 10:38 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Aman]
RokuSix Offline


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I think it's a good idea, and trust me, I've thought about it many times, but it may not work. There's already two trains running on the express tracks, and the extra 6 trains would cause congestion. In addition, demand for the Lexington Local is so high, they need as many trains running as possible.
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#404413 - 01/30/08 11:09 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Aman]
Relay Offline
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Registered: 01/11/08
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Loc: New York City
 Originally Posted By: Aman
Hi,

why not improve service and have 6 Bronx express run express on tracks of # 4 & 5 in Manhatan?
Then no mad rush switching trains at 125 street.


Because it would cause delays north of Brooklyn Bridge, when these "express" 6 trains would slowdown the entire process to cross back to the local track for access to the loop.
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#404548 - 01/31/08 07:39 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Relay]
R32_3348 Offline
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#404955 - 02/02/08 02:21 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Aman]
sebbieprops Offline
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Registered: 06/15/07
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 Originally Posted By: Aman
Hi,

why not improve service and have 6 Bronx express run express on tracks of # 4 & 5 in Manhatan?
Then no mad rush switching trains at 125 street.


If we did, which line would stop at the local stations on the Lexington line?
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#405008 - 02/02/08 07:41 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: sebbieprops]
Aman Offline
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Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Manhattan
Hi sebbieprops,

The existing 6 local, originating at Parkchester, would contuine running local.
Maybe every third 4 or 5 would run local through manhattan.

The A & D merge at canal street w/o a problem, so the 6 express could do the same approaching Brooklyn bridge.

okay?

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#405011 - 02/02/08 08:22 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Aman]
Relay Offline
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Posts: 266
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 Originally Posted By: Aman
Hi sebbieprops,

The existing 6 local, originating at Parkchester, would contuine running local.
Maybe every third 4 or 5 would run local through manhattan.

The A & D merge at canal street w/o a problem, so the 6 express could do the same approaching Brooklyn bridge.

okay?


I don't think it would work. Firstly, you would create an insufficient service problem at the Lexington Ave local stations. And you would force the 5's to run via 7th Avenue. The Lexington line is so heavily trafficked that this happens all the time when the 6 is rerouted to the express tracks. And, as I mentioned earlier, the additional slowing down of your "express" 6's to cross them over north of Brooklyn Bridge would congest the line even further. Then also, don't forget the crowd of passengers who after all these years are still confused by the diamond 6 Pelham express and the circle 6 Parkchester local. Your proposal would put them in "the twilight zone".
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#405546 - 02/04/08 02:59 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Relay]
sebbieprops Offline
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Simply because it would reduce local service along the Lexington line, I'd say it's not going to work.
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#407237 - 02/12/08 11:56 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Relay]
R62A 2012 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Relay
Because it would cause delays north of Brooklyn Bridge, when these "express" 6 trains would slowdown the entire process to cross back to the local track for access to the loop.

If this were the case, 6 Express service could run through to Brooklyn.
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#407371 - 02/13/08 09:12 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R62A 2012]
Relay Offline
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Granted. But now you would have a diamond 6 running express in the Bronx and Manhattan, and continuing to Brooklyn, and circle 6's running local in Manhattan. There are people, right now, still confused by the circle and diamond 6 service even after all these years. I would not want to extend this confusion down Lexington Avenue. Remember that most people are not railfans. They see and understand only the "6". Many people don't acknowledge the diamond or the circle. And then there is the problem of the signage failing. The r-142 equipment is not even yet 10 years old. Yet many of these trains are having multiplex problems. (That is the system by which the cars communicate with each other. A train of R-142's has 58 computers on board.) So now you see some cars displaying "Pelham Bay Park", others "Parkchester", and then one or two "no passengers". Your proposal might have merit and work well. But somehow I don't think so.
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#407373 - 02/13/08 09:49 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Relay]
RokuSix Offline


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I agree with Relay, a 6 train running to Brooklyn would cause mass confusion...and a ton of trains on the Lexington Express tracks.
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#407421 - 02/13/08 11:51 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Aman]
6PelhamExp Offline
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I dont think that having the Pelham Express trains run express in Manhattan will improve service on Lex Av. First, most of the people who ride the 4 & 5 are heading towards the Jerome Line or WPR Line in the Bronx or towards Brooklyn. Some people do ride the express train in Manhattan only, but a person who is trying to go to Woodlawn would not benefit from the Pelham Express because they would have to transfer at 125th Street for the 4. Two, the demand for Lex Av Lcl service is HUGE. Making Pelham Express trains run express in Manhattan would jeopardize the flow of trains on the Local tracks and local stations and trains will be extremely over crowded. Three, the current service pattern with the Pelham Local and Express favors Lex Av Local because trains roll into Lex with more frequency. This is why the service pattern is as such. Having Pelham Exp trains run express in Manhattan will screw up Lex Av Lcl, cause congestion on the Lex Av Exp, and will not benefit Bronx or Brooklyn riders.
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#407423 - 02/13/08 11:55 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: 6PelhamExp]
RokuSix Offline


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I completely agree.
Welcome to the boards, by the way!
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#407553 - 02/14/08 11:33 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Relay]
Aman Offline
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Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Manhattan
Hi all,

I have been reading these messages for months. i find that many replies are negative- that is "It can't be done." Where would we be today, if Inventors like Thomas Edison felt this way ( no electricity or Imternet).

That said, a Pehlam express running on express tracks in Manhattan would get people from that line's end ( Perhlam bay- Park Chester) to downtown quicker, and they might retain their seat, vs. switching at 125 street.

Two i suggested that for every #6 running express , an equal number of #4 & #5's would run local. By the way, this would permit people from those areas to not transfer to locals for their midtown stop.

Lastly if Service on the 6 local is so important, and over crowded, why do i often see a #4 & #5 pass me while on a local platform? To me, that means 2x more express trains than locals. Why not operate more local trains? In fact if i want a seat, midday, i often choose an express.

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#407560 - 02/15/08 01:21 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Aman]
Forest Glen Offline
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Even if this service pattern makes sense, it would involve complex switching. Switching adds to the trip time and backs up the line.
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#407563 - 02/15/08 01:24 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Forest Glen]
Alon Offline
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Registered: 08/25/07
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Rush hour dwells are so long, especially on express lines, that the 4 and 5 are hardly any faster than the 6.

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#407798 - 02/15/08 09:00 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Aman]
Relay Offline
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Loc: New York City
Aman, I don't see where a lot of people said "it can't be done". What most said was that your proposal "wouldn't improve service". So don't take it personally. Understand that what you are proposing would involve 4, 5 and 6 service on both express and local tracks. That alone would confuse passengers beyond description. I have to repeat that most passengers are not railfans. They don't pay attention to details, like diamonds and circles, as we do. They are going to be confused. Confused passengers hold doors open while they try to ask directions from passengers on board. Holding doors will cause delays. So much for improving service.


I can tell you as an operating motorman that there is no switching problem at 125. The track configuration there will expedite any move because the trains don't cross against each other, like the 6's do north of Parkchester. What you are proposing would have some 4's, 5's and 6's crossing against each other just north of Brooklyn Bridge. And that is where the operational delays will occur, just as they do now, whenever 6's run express or 4's and 5's run local. Can it be done? Certainly. But the speed restriction crossing over switchpoints (I'll give it to you from the NYCT rulebook: "Trains operating over the diverging or curved section of a switch must not exceed ten miles per hour unless otherwise posted.") Now southbound expresses and northbound locals around Brooklyn Bridge can use these switches (on straight iron) without crossing over at near road speed. 4's and 5's can easily roll straight into Brooklyn Bridge at 35-40 MPH, and northbound 6's can blaze out of Brooklyn Bridge on full power also. That is not going to happen if the train is crossing from the local to express track, or vice versa. Its 10 MPH, that's it. And every train behind it will be backed up as well. So much for improving the service.

To answer your question "why not operate more local trains?" Because the 6 is running at near capacity right now. One of the reason for Parkchester turnbacks, is that Pelham Bay cannot handle that many trains, so some are short turned. In fact, in the height of the AM rush hour, there are three or four trains that are turned back at 138 and 3rd Ave in addition to the Parkchester relays. As soon as something goes wrong to delay the service, Parkchester service is terminated and those trains sent to the yard.
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#418010 - 04/18/08 08:27 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Relay]
Probie_Conductor Offline
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Registered: 03/18/07
Posts: 24
Loc: NY,NY
you could sent the <6> express to bowling green loop, this fixes the switching problem at Brooklyn bridge.
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#418018 - 04/18/08 09:37 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Probie_Conductor]
cotb16 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Probie_Conductor
you could sent the <6> express to bowling green loop, this fixes the switching problem at Brooklyn bridge.


It won't work either. There would be southbound delays at Brooklyn Bridge with track switching. Its better off with the current pattern.
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#418046 - 04/19/08 01:59 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: cotb16]
Probie_Conductor Offline
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 Originally Posted By: cotb16
 Originally Posted By: Probie_Conductor
you could sent the <6> express to bowling green loop, this fixes the switching problem at Brooklyn bridge.


It won't work either. There would be southbound delays at Brooklyn Bridge with track switching. Its better off with the current pattern.


if the 6 is express in Manhattan why would u need switching at the bridge?
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#418076 - 04/19/08 02:36 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Probie_Conductor]
Forest Glen Offline
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The 6 runs local in Manhattan.
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#418083 - 04/19/08 02:58 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Probie_Conductor]
R32_3348 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Probie_Conductor
if the 6 is express in Manhattan why would u need switching at the bridge?


If you run the 6 express in Manhattan, it has to switch because the loop is only accessible through the local tracks.

But either way, running the 6 express as an express in Manhattan is a bad idea since you're cutting badly needed service on the local tracks and the express tracks are over capacity either way.

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#418099 - 04/19/08 05:06 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R32_3348]
Probie_Conductor Offline
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Loc: NY,NY
im talking about the south ferry loop at bowling green not the brooklyn bridge loop lol i think thats what the confusion is



and in this scenario thats what he wants the 6 express in manhattan..so im saying just run the <6> to bowling green around the south ferry loop no switching involved except in the loop which is already done


Edited by Probie_Conductor (04/19/08 05:07 PM)
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#418138 - 04/19/08 11:50 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Aman]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Why are you running the <6> on the Lex express tracks? There's no room on it with just the 4/5 lines running on it already and you want to add in the <6>? That makes no sense at all plus the <6> are basically 6 trains that makes express stops in the Bronx. It's basically the same line, why are you moving it to the express tracks on Lexington for?
For the time wasted to switch the <6> to the express and some 4/5's as local, you are making an already crowded line delayed further just so you don't have to make a transfer at one of the express stops. It makes no sense at all.

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#418313 - 04/20/08 09:56 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Grand Concourse]
cotb16 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse
Why are you running the <6> on the Lex express tracks? There's no room on it with just the 4/5 lines running on it already and you want to add in the <6>? That makes no sense at all plus the <6> are basically 6 trains that makes express stops in the Bronx. It's basically the same line, why are you moving it to the express tracks on Lexington for?
For the time wasted to switch the <6> to the express and some 4/5's as local, you are making an already crowded line delayed further just so you don't have to make a transfer at one of the express stops. It makes no sense at all.


Not only that but the locals would be crushloaded BEFORE reaching 96th St.
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#418428 - 04/21/08 09:55 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Probie_Conductor]
straphanger9 Offline
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Registered: 11/29/07
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Well if you're talking about using these dead end layup tracks south of BB (the ones off Tk 1 that DON'T go to the loop) to get those trains to the SF loop, those tracks can't be connected because of the superelevation of the mainline track north of Fulton.

As for switching S/B <6> trains north of BB from Tk 1 to Tk 2 to get them to the Green, that would cause delays for the reasons Relay posted, particularly considering that if there is a (4) or (5) in the station, not only is that <6> held outside the crossover but any (6) behind it is jacked up. Likewise that means REALLY slowing express trains through Canal which means timer city, otherwise it will never fly. You Gotta reduce the express speed through Canal S/B, especially since a <6> train might be switching over onto 2 track in front of that express or sitting on 2 at BB and that switch needs to be reset for the express to proceed through. The point I'm trying to make is it's not that big of a service improvement to justify the costs and delays associated with it, cuz all that adds up to a lot of slowing down.

Also you got the confusion of the geese at BB N/B who suddenly got (6) and <6> trains showing up on both tracks...

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#418556 - 04/22/08 02:23 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: straphanger9]
cda Offline
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It seems to me like a much better implementation of the spirit of this idea would be that <6> would be renumbered (8) and would run express from Pelham Bay Park and then replace the (5) on Lex Ave express and further destinations (Bowling Green, Flatbush, Utica). The (5) would then run local down Lex Ave along with the (6) and both would terminate at Brooklyn Bridge. Nights and weekends the (8) would not run, and (6) would be extended to Pelham Bay Park from Parkchester, and this roughly matches the service pattern for Brooklyn since the (5) does not run there during this time either. (Or some service pattern could be implemented where (8) runs limited service through to Bowling Green when the (5) would have otherwise done so).

The only switching issue with this plan occurs at 125th street where basically all 4 possible routes are used, so there is more switching needed. I am not sure how much this could slow down service there - may still be prohibitive.

And of course the question still remains about whether this is really needed... and how (5) riders would react... neither of which I can really speak to, but it seems to me like the necessary effort is likely not to be worth it just to have <6> service run express all the way down Lex. But as stated before I know very little about the Bronx ;\)
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#418569 - 04/22/08 05:18 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: cda]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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Registered: 07/23/03
Posts: 1469
Loc: Staten Island
Let's make this simple:

1) Taking Pelham Bay trains and running them as Lexington Avenue express trains is BAD - whether

a) we call them #8 trains or leave them as #6 trains;

b) while the 125th Street station can handle the switching duties, the Brooklyn Bridge station can not;

c) the riders will be confused about what train goes where and holding up the service - which means that there is something to be said for "stability" of train routes;

d) just because the switching capability is there does not mean that we have to use it - yes Pelham or Jerome trains can be equally local or express at 125th Street - big deal.

e) Taking the Pelham Bay trains away from the Lexington Avenue local (by making them express) leaves too few trains (Parkchester) to handle the amount of riders at the local stations. Even diverting a few #4 or #5 trains to serve as locals again "jams up" the line with riders confused about what train goes where, and huge amount of daily riders.

f) Transit fans like to think about every possible route that could be made, to ask "what if" -- which is very different from actually running a railroad that has to transport millions daily.

g) Considering that the TA runs the trains, one would have thought they could have come up with this "new bright idea", on their own. Or is that maybe this "new bright idea" is just no so good after all. What does the TA know, they "only have to actually run a railroad".

h) One could actually look at Lexington Avenue as a "system" for moving trains not as switch points to "play with the trains". The #4 and #5 lines are merged/split at 149th Street, and again at Franklin Avenue - in between the trains can just simply run. If all goes well, the #6 does not have to switch tracks with any other line at any station - so the trains can run fast.

Just a few thoughts,
Mike

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#418691 - 04/23/08 02:13 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: MikeGerald45]
cda Offline
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 Originally Posted By: MikeGerald45
Let's make this simple:

1) Taking Pelham Bay trains and running them as Lexington Avenue express trains is BAD - whether

a) we call them #8 trains or leave them as #6 trains;

b) while the 125th Street station can handle the switching duties, the Brooklyn Bridge station can not;

c) the riders will be confused about what train goes where and holding up the service - which means that there is something to be said for "stability" of train routes;

d) just because the switching capability is there does not mean that we have to use it - yes Pelham or Jerome trains can be equally local or express at 125th Street - big deal.

e) Taking the Pelham Bay trains away from the Lexington Avenue local (by making them express) leaves too few trains (Parkchester) to handle the amount of riders at the local stations. Even diverting a few #4 or #5 trains to serve as locals again "jams up" the line with riders confused about what train goes where, and huge amount of daily riders.

f) Transit fans like to think about every possible route that could be made, to ask "what if" -- which is very different from actually running a railroad that has to transport millions daily.

g) Considering that the TA runs the trains, one would have thought they could have come up with this "new bright idea", on their own. Or is that maybe this "new bright idea" is just no so good after all. What does the TA know, they "only have to actually run a railroad".

h) One could actually look at Lexington Avenue as a "system" for moving trains not as switch points to "play with the trains". The #4 and #5 lines are merged/split at 149th Street, and again at Franklin Avenue - in between the trains can just simply run. If all goes well, the #6 does not have to switch tracks with any other line at any station - so the trains can run fast.

Just a few thoughts,
Mike


i agree with you on d-f-g-h for sure... i was just playing "what if" like you mention ;\) especially i think h is the best point... it does create extra merging/splitting... which can provide more variety of service (think about queens blvd!) but can create bottlenecks as well.

on b-c-e however, you misunderstood me...

b) my plan does not create additional switching in the brooklyn bridge area, since cars running down lex local would always terminate there, and all express trains would run further south.

e) my plan would take ALL 5 trains and run them local on lex, so that would provide the needed trains for lex local service.

c) riders would not be confused because ALL 4-8 trains are express, while ALL 5-6 are local. it is a service change from the present, but it is self-consistent. perhaps a clearer way to state an equivalent plan would be that 5 service (staying express on lex) would be rerouted to pelham express, and a new 8 service would be created to fill the gap in WPR service, running local on lex.

thanks for your thoughts!
-cda
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#418733 - 04/23/08 09:14 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: cda]
R32_3348 Offline
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Registered: 03/25/07
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The current pattern is the best. The same destination can be achieved with a transfer anyway.

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#418760 - 04/24/08 01:01 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R32_3348]
cotb16 Offline
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Registered: 12/25/05
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Loc: Morrisania, Bronx
 Originally Posted By: R32_3348
The current pattern is the best. The same destination can be achieved with a transfer anyway.


Agreed. The 6 wouldn't be the 6 if all of this changed.
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#418971 - 04/25/08 06:18 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: cotb16]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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Registered: 07/23/03
Posts: 1469
Loc: Staten Island
From a previous mesage: "riders would not be confused because ALL 4-8 trains are express, while ALL 5-6 are local. it is a service change from the present, but it is self-consistent. perhaps a clearer way to state an equivalent plan would be that 5 service (staying express on lex) would be rerouted to pelham express, and a new 8 service would be created to fill the gap in WPR service, running local on lex."

Before the 1950's on the westside IRT lines at 96th Street, there were local and express trains that travel to/from Broadway, and local and express trains that traveled on Lenox Avenue, with express trains coming from the Bronx. The trains from 241st and 242nd Streets were the express trains to/from Brooklyn, while the local trains to South Ferry both operated out of 137th Street-CCNY, and 145th Street-Lenox Avenue (and that is why that station is a short station holding only 5-cars).

The 96th Street was the switch point and bottle neck of the system. Why? While a local train traveling up Broadway, and an express train traveling up Lenox Avenue did not cross paths, the other routes caused switching problems. The TA tried several approaches to remove the bottlenecks at the station. When a Broadway express reached 96th Street it had to be switched to and from the express tracks. When a Lenox Avenue local train reached 96th Street it had to be switched to and from the local tracks to and from the express tracks that lead under Central Park. Hence there are two routes whose trains cross-paths. These routes also block trains that are "straight-routed" on the tracks. The TA decided about 50-years ago to do away with this scheme, and to create what today we call the #1, #2 and #3 lines - where at 96th Street, none of these routes cross paths, each are "straight routed" lines.

Now let's look at your idea. Again you would have #4 trains as express, #5 trains as local, #6 trains from Parkchester as local, and #8 trains from Pelham Bay as express. The switch point would be the 125th Street station. At the 149th Street-Grand Concourse station, #5 trains would have to be merged into or split from the path of #2 trains, to join (or depart) the stream of #4 trains. Then again at the 125th Street, these #5 trains would have to merged or split from the path of #4 trains, to be merged and split from the path of #6 trains. Of course, #8 trains would have to be merged and split from the pathways of #6 trains, and again merged and split from the path of #4 trains.

Thus at the 125th Street-Lexington Avenue station only the certain pairs of trains could proceed through the station approach tracks without interference - one pair consists of the #4 and #6 trains. One advantage of the 125th Street station is that #5 and #8 trains could proceed through the station at the same time. This would require some major league scheduling to make sure that the pairs always line up the same way. If an uptown #4 and an uptown #5 train entered the station at the same time, one train would have to wait for the other to proceed before it could proceed, blocking the train behind it. Similarly if an uptown #6 and an uptown #8 were to arrive at the same time, one train is blocked from proceeding.

The same sequence of trains would have to happen on the downtown platfrom, only pairs of #4 and #6 trains, and pairs of #5 and # 8 trains could use the station at the same time. Every other combination blocks a pathway for a train, and the one behind it. Right now there is no such blocking or switching of trains, (emergencies of course and G.O.'s do not count), allowing the quick movement of trains into and out of the station. The dispatchers do not have to care about what sequence of trains is using the 125th Street station, since none of the sequences blocks another train.

There is another issue, the #2 and #5 are "paired lines" where if there is a problem with one route, the trains are routed to the "other" pathway. Sometimes #2 trains will travel down or up Lexington Avenue to or from Brooklyn, or #5 trains will travel the westside. Thus when there are problems, the trains can be "returned" to their place of origin.

Your scheme of sending #5 trains to Brooklyn Bridge, creates more problems than it solves.

Just a few thoughts.
Mike

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#418988 - 04/25/08 12:35 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: MikeGerald45]
mta36 Offline
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Making the 5 a Lex local(bronx express) and the 4 and the 6 the Express is not a bad idea this would justify ridership on each line.


The 6 is bronx express only to have those people pour out of the train at 125th street (stay with me let me explain) if that train continues express then it relieves the crowds at 125th street.

The 4 and 6 prooves they have the crowds the Pelham line Proves that an express service was needed in the bronx meaning that high service could be needed in Manhattan


The 5 is express in the Bronx due to length and the areas it serves. (bringing the working class North Bronx )

The 5's transfer point for express service can be 149th street grand concourse people who really is on schedule would have the option to get off there as well as 125th street.

I would'nt have the 5 terminate @ brooklyn Bridge it will run it's course but the train will be local in Man. maybe extend the 6 express to Bowling green at rush hours the issue there is the two track issue that can work for and against . it against if there is a delay in Man. but a another resource if there is a delay in Brooklyn meaning that wall street riders will not be delayed if there is a 6 train coming from bowling green.


I am not to familuar with the track switching in that areas so i bet some of you will enlighten me on that

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#418989 - 04/25/08 12:37 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: mta36]
mta36 Offline
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To note ...


People seem to forget that after 9/11 this experiment took place when the 5 was going to parkchester. and some riders actaully loved it to have an express ride from Man to parkchester

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#419011 - 04/25/08 02:31 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: mta36]
R32_3348 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mta36
Making the 5 a Lex local(bronx express) and the 4 and the 6 the Express is not a bad idea this would justify ridership on each line.


The 6 is bronx express only to have those people pour out of the train at 125th street (stay with me let me explain) if that train continues express then it relieves the crowds at 125th street.

The 4 and 6 prooves they have the crowds the Pelham line Proves that an express service was needed in the bronx meaning that high service could be needed in Manhattan


The 5 is express in the Bronx due to length and the areas it serves. (bringing the working class North Bronx )

The 5's transfer point for express service can be 149th street grand concourse people who really is on schedule would have the option to get off there as well as 125th street.

I would'nt have the 5 terminate @ brooklyn Bridge it will run it's course but the train will be local in Man. maybe extend the 6 express to Bowling green at rush hours the issue there is the two track issue that can work for and against . it against if there is a delay in Man. but a another resource if there is a delay in Brooklyn meaning that wall street riders will not be delayed if there is a 6 train coming from bowling green.


I am not to familuar with the track switching in that areas so i bet some of you will enlighten me on that


Track Maps (upon request)
Uptown
Central
Midtown
Downtown

Yes, all of the lines are crowded in both Manhattan and the Bronx but it isn't very justified here - ALL of the liens are crowded and that's just due to high ridership. Besides, instead of having a one-seat ride and changing all three routes you can just make a transfer at any express station.

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#419041 - 04/25/08 05:00 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R32_3348]
mta36 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: R32_3348
 Originally Posted By: mta36
Making the 5 a Lex local(bronx express) and the 4 and the 6 the Express is not a bad idea this would justify ridership on each line.


The 6 is bronx express only to have those people pour out of the train at 125th street (stay with me let me explain) if that train continues express then it relieves the crowds at 125th street.

The 4 and 6 prooves they have the crowds the Pelham line Proves that an express service was needed in the bronx meaning that high service could be needed in Manhattan


The 5 is express in the Bronx due to length and the areas it serves. (bringing the working class North Bronx )

The 5's transfer point for express service can be 149th street grand concourse people who really is on schedule would have the option to get off there as well as 125th street.

I would'nt have the 5 terminate @ brooklyn Bridge it will run it's course but the train will be local in Man. maybe extend the 6 express to Bowling green at rush hours the issue there is the two track issue that can work for and against . it against if there is a delay in Man. but a another resource if there is a delay in Brooklyn meaning that wall street riders will not be delayed if there is a 6 train coming from bowling green.


I am not to familuar with the track switching in that areas so i bet some of you will enlighten me on that


Track Maps (upon request)
Uptown
Central
Midtown
Downtown

Yes, all of the lines are crowded in both Manhattan and the Bronx but it isn't very justified here - ALL of the liens are crowded and that's just due to high ridership. Besides, instead of having a one-seat ride and changing all three routes you can just make a transfer at any express station.




The 5 running local could just the line running later into the bronx due to the Lex avenue local traffic this is the biggest reason haha


the 6 even running express will still have it's ridership as would the 4 train.

The crowd rushing at 125th street needs to be calmed and the rush is not for nothing other than express service so this is proof that maybe the cluster of crowds on the lex line would be more evened out the line and not have the express trains become sardine cans especially @ 86 Street

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#419043 - 04/25/08 05:11 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: mta36]
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I dunno, I'm starting to think that the current pattern of service along the Lexington line is fine...I think that perhaps one should wait until the completion of the Second Avenue Subway is evaluated before switching around the current East Side service. Yes, the express trains are packed, but won't the few locals be even more packed?
Any way you put it, the East Side will be packed.
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#419047 - 04/25/08 05:26 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: RokuSix]
mta36 Offline
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Niot really becasue you have to remember the pattern .

the 5 is express from 180th to 149th that is basically 20 stops if you count both divisions .

the 4 may get a boost at 149th

and the 2 may inherit riders

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#419220 - 04/26/08 06:16 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: mta36]
R32_3348 Offline
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The 6 has its ridership because it's a local and not an express. 77th Street, 96th Street, 68th Street and 51st Street are examples of stations where tons of people get off and on.

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#419499 - 04/28/08 12:30 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R32_3348]
mta36 Offline
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The six bronx ridership is deep it is over crowded with the 77th 96th 51st street type stops. while the 5 bronx rider ship @125th is the lowest and in fact is the emptier train of the three.

6 EXPRESS will still be crowded.

the current pattern is good but people forgot this was done already with basically the 5 running to parkchester after 9/11 and in fact the customers loved it

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#419525 - 04/28/08 07:29 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: mta36]
R32_3348 Offline
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Well, no one's complaining about it now so it should stay.

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#419629 - 04/30/08 12:43 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R32_3348]
B35 via Church Offline
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well, uhh, let's have:

4 trains run express in brooklyn, local in manhattan (north of brooklyn bridge), and local in the bronx... just for kicks, ya can have peak direction service in the bronx as well...

5 trains run local in brooklyn (some to utica, some to f'bush), express in manhattan, and local in the bronx (service to 238th eliminated)...

6 local trains remain unchanged in both boroughs it serves
6 express trains run express (on the express tracks) in manhattan north of brooklyn bridge (it's current terminal), run express in the bronx; peak direction... up to Parkchester...


...and that, my friends, is how you f*** up service along Lexington av.


if you (threadstarter) don't see where I'm goin w/ this, in regards to the thread title & how ridiculous I think this idea is, then don't bother....
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#419632 - 04/30/08 12:58 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: B35 via Church]
EE Broadway Local Offline

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B35 via Church, if the extensions approved by The Board Of Estimate in 1968 were built, I think the (4) down Utica Avenue to Kings Highway and the (2)(5) down Nostrand Avenue to Avenue U would be cool today.
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#419677 - 04/30/08 10:26 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: EE Broadway Local]
cotb16 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local
B35 via Church, if the extensions approved by The Board Of Estimate in 1968 were built, I think the (4) down Utica Avenue to Kings Highway and the (2)(5) down Nostrand Avenue to Avenue U would be cool today.


You got that right. The B44 and 46 would be filled with elderly though.
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#419719 - 05/01/08 02:01 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: cotb16]
B35 via Church Offline
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 Originally Posted By: cotb16
You got that right. The B44 and 46 would be filled with elderly though.


This is beside the point, but yeah, there's already a growing elderly riderbase on the B46.... that I have noticed the past few mos....



 Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local
B35 via Church, if the extensions approved by The Board Of Estimate in 1968 were built, I think the (4) down Utica Avenue to Kings Highway and the (2)(5) down Nostrand Avenue to Avenue U would be cool today.

Oh, I see what you're sayin... you thought I meant service along utica av, in that little tirade of sarcasm I had goin on there... nah, I was simply referring to the Utica av/eastern pkwy. station...

as for your reply here... yes, in this date & time, subway service along Utica av would be heralded!



I still disagree w/ sending 6 express trains, express in Manhattan.
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#420553 - 05/07/08 11:54 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Probie_Conductor]
Gtrain_hostage Offline
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6 shud go thru bowling green loops nites tho- as it has on occasion- requires no extra trains just does cut virtually all the recovery time at south end of trip.... wah wah.. the current arrangement is best tho- depite that atleast 4x a/ week i experience a 6 battery run- and i get on at local manhattan stop- no help to me-i would toss in a pelham exp from bowling green or hell even GASP new lots like maybe 3 or 4 trains in the am/ pm rush....ok so not new lots but definitely to bowling green, the switch at 125th sb is no big deal, yes lex is at capacity but there are gaps that can be exploited>>> and wat a treat whn a pelham exp via lex exp arrives at 125th nB no need to transfer trains or sb...
a lot of changes could be implemented if crews on trains and pltfrms were more aggressive in moving trains... and rebuilding switches to allow say 30mph not 10-15.. to this is perhaps a space issue since u cant just tear out walls o make switches longer and more gradual ala metro north/lirr

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#420869 - 05/08/08 07:53 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Gtrain_hostage]
mta36 Offline
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the FACT is the 6 and the 4 are the most crowded of the three lines meaning there is another line to work with in terms of crowd control and for the record the lex lines is already f**Ked up. the 5 can easily be the lex ave local because it's riders have three different options to switch and two express trains transfers before it hit manhattan while the six is crowded from 125th to pelham and is the bronx line that covers alot of real estate for it's line probally has the most area to cover for it's riders and the most distance between another train line in the whole bronx.

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#420901 - 05/08/08 11:21 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: mta36]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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From a previous message: "the 5 can easily be the lex ave local because it's ..."

Please, please think in terms of the track maps, the capabilities of the actual stations before entertaining another thought about the #5 train as a local.

In order to have #5 trains as the local, #6 trains as the express you will have to have trains switching to and fro between the local and express tracks. There will be situations where the tracks will be blocked - for example with both a #$ and #6 train arrive at 125th Street and they both need to use the express tracks downtown, or when both #4 and #5 trains traveling uptown arrive at 125th Street. Your "suggestion" results in a reduction of smooth operation. At the Brooklyn Bridge station, your "suggestion" is even WORSE since all switching would be done on the same level, when only one train (either direction) can switch from one track to another. This is basically a bad idea - it will tie up the tracks for no benefit to the riders.

However all of this has been explained in detail in the previous messages.

Mike

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#420963 - 05/09/08 04:31 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: MikeGerald45]
EE Broadway Local Offline

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This weekend there will be a small, partial opportunity. The (6) in the Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall direction will run express from 125th to 42d Street-Grand Central from 11pm tonight to 5am Monday. As the (4) and (5) do, the (6) will stop at 86th and 59th Streets.
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#420964 - 05/09/08 04:41 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: MikeGerald45]
mta36 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: MikeGerald45
From a previous message: "the 5 can easily be the lex ave local because it's ..."

Please, please think in terms of the track maps, the capabilities of the actual stations before entertaining another thought about the #5 train as a local.

In order to have #5 trains as the local, #6 trains as the express you will have to have trains switching to and fro between the local and express tracks. There will be situations where the tracks will be blocked - for example with both a #$ and #6 train arrive at 125th Street and they both need to use the express tracks downtown, or when both #4 and #5 trains traveling uptown arrive at 125th Street. Your "suggestion" results in a reduction of smooth operation. At the Brooklyn Bridge station, your "suggestion" is even WORSE since all switching would be done on the same level, when only one train (either direction) can switch from one track to another. This is basically a bad idea - it will tie up the tracks for no benefit to the riders.

However all of this has been explained in detail in the previous messages.

Mike



so basically the only hope to releive this mess is for some of the 86th street 59th street riders to hop on the 2nd ave subaway

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#420982 - 05/09/08 07:58 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: mta36]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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There is an argument that the Lexington Avenue line has been, is still and in the future will be over-crowded, as the only line to run on the eastside of Manhattan.

Since that is the case, it makes a great deal of sense to have as SMOOTH, SWIFT AND EFFORT-LESS as possible train movements and operations. That means the switching of trains in ways that block other trains from moving is really not desireable. Given the large number of riders, and the amount of trains that have to pass through the stations to attempt to meet the demand - slowing down the operations of the stations, etc - is just not a good idea.

Currently, #4 and #5 trains merge/split in the Bronx about/near 149th Street-Grand Concourse station, and again, at Bowling Green or Franklin Avenue, Brooklyn. Hence the express tracks become a fast moving pathway for many trains, that is "straight-railed" to Brooklyn.

Currently, #6 do not have to merge with any of the express trains in its normal set of operations, it is "straight railed to its terminal. Only in the Bronx, among #6 trains is there a Parkchester local, and a Pelham Express - which is more about providing a "mid-line" terminal to return #6 trains to Manhattan a bit faster.

Thus the express stations along Lexington Avenue only have to perform any switch operations when there is trouble.

As we on the boards have always said, G.O.'s are emergency operations, where "work-arounds" often have to be made by the TA and the riders. The riders between 125th Street-42nd Street will simply have to take an uptown train to reach by-passed stations.

Mike

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#424609 - 06/03/08 02:58 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: MikeGerald45]
cda Offline
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btw... forgot to reply earlier, but thanks to mike for his excellent points! definitely seems like it's best to leave service as-is. although still fun to think about alternate possibilities \:\)
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#424624 - 06/03/08 02:44 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: cda]
mta36 Offline
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All i know is this while it may be a problem after 9/11 or maybe the blackout I cannot remember but the trains were rerouted for some time a month or so

the 5 trains were running up to parkchester

Congestion on the 6 was lowered.

I think there was lines terminating at 149th GC going north or every other 5 was running it's normal course.

anyways ..

That scene prooved that an manhattan express can run to parkchester

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#424628 - 06/03/08 03:33 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: mta36]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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From a previous message: "That scene prooved that an manhattan express can run to parkchester."

It is absolutely true that a #5 or any express train can run to or from Parkchester or any station along the Pelham Bay line. In fact any train along the #4 and #5 lines from the Bronx can be a local along the Lexington Avenue line. If one were to look at the actual track diagrams, each branch Jerome or Pelham have equal capability to be local or express along Lexington Avenue.

It is really kind of like the "free speech" argument, just because one can yell, "Fire" in a crowded theater - there is no law against it - there are sound judgement reasons that should not engage in such an action.

I agree that there can be many routings and mixtures of train routes. However the actual implementation of some of those routings brings about problems. Hence the goals of such ideas have to be examined regardless of the ability to do "something", it's the "why should it be done" point to make.

There is a history to the Lexington Avenue subway that Pelham line trains were local, and that any trains using the Jerome branch (meaning the #4 and #5 lines) were express. Track design wise that could easily be reversed. But over the decades the TA has not done so, which means that there have to some good reasons why.

Mike

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#424664 - 06/03/08 09:03 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: MikeGerald45]
R32_3348 Offline
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Loc: Jackson Heights
 Originally Posted By: MikeGerald45
...just because one can yell, "Fire" in a crowded theater - there is no law against it - there are sound judgement reasons that should not engage in such an action.


Actually, IIRC, there IS a law against it...at least you're probably going to get arrested.

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#424681 - 06/04/08 01:19 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R32_3348]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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Okay, maybe I was a bit too dramatic with the "Fire" comment, but the major point remains.

Sometimes just because we "can do something" does not always mean that we "have to do something".

That was really the major point.
Mike S.

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#425131 - 06/06/08 07:40 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: MikeGerald45]
R62A 2012 Offline
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The issue of yelling "fire" in a public venue when no such emergency or situation exists is the premise behind Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes' 1919 "Clear and Present Danger test". Free speech may be censored or prohibited if it poses a threat of safety concern to the public.
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#467642 - 01/27/09 04:33 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R62A 2012]
GG65 Offline
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A (6) <6> Manhattan Express would be ok, only if there is room on the express tracks. In my opinion the (5) should be lex local.

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#467656 - 01/27/09 04:51 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: GG65]
R160Etrain Offline
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Leave the <6> the way it is. It would be nice if the 5 was local as though. Then the 4 can run every 2-3 mins.

4-Lexingon Express/Woodlawn Local
<4>-Lexington Express/Woodlawn Express

5-Lexington Local
Dyre Av to Brooklyn Bridge
all times

6-Lexington Local
Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge
all times

<6>-Lexington Local/Pelham Express


Edited by R160Etrain (01/27/09 04:52 PM)

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#467682 - 01/27/09 06:37 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R160Etrain]
EQ_Express Offline
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Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Leave the <6> the way it is. It would be nice if the 5 was local as though. Then the 4 can run every 2-3 mins.

4-Lexingon Express/Woodlawn Local
<4>-Lexington Express/Woodlawn Express

5-Lexington Local
Dyre Av to Brooklyn Bridge
all times

6-Lexington Local
Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge
all times

<6>-Lexington Local/Pelham Express


1. The 4 will be absolutely OVERLOADED (only Lex express), and it's now the only train to the Financial District.

2. You can't put more trains on the Lex Line, even the local is at capacity.

3. Only real solution: BUILD THAT SAS!
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#467685 - 01/27/09 07:06 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: EQ_Express]
R160Etrain Offline
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Don't 5 trains rarely come? Plus aren't some 5 trains re-routed over lexington local and 7 Avenue? Plus don't 5 trains get a lot of delays?

Anyway how about you eliminate the Nereid <5> and have 5 trains go to Dyre Av all times. And due to the infrequency and delays on the 5 this should free up some space for the <4>.

(4)-Every 5 mins
<4>-Every 6 mins
(5)-every 6-7 mins

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#467708 - 01/27/09 09:02 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R160Etrain]
BX41LTD Offline
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Registered: 01/19/09
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I believe in a Woodlawn Express, and anyway like a bunch of (5) trains are sent under 7 Avenue during the rush hour.

TO FLATBUSH AV
via 7 AV EXPRESS
BROOKLYN EXPRESS
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#467717 - 01/27/09 10:04 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: BX41LTD]
R160Etrain Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
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The <4> terminates at Woodlawn, the (4) terminates at Burnside Av, problem solved.

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#467807 - 01/28/09 01:26 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R160Etrain]
EQ_Express Offline
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Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Don't 5 trains rarely come? Plus aren't some 5 trains re-routed over lexington local and 7 Avenue? Plus don't 5 trains get a lot of delays?

Anyway how about you eliminate the Nereid <5> and have 5 trains go to Dyre Av all times. And due to the infrequency and delays on the 5 this should free up some space for the <4>.

(4)-Every 5 mins
<4>-Every 6 mins
(5)-every 6-7 mins



Inconveniences WPR, but I can see the logic. You could eliminate the 5 altogether, and ramp up the 2 and extend the 3, so you could run <4> express.
Oh, and you have to improve the transfer at 149, it's so decrepit.
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#467825 - 01/28/09 01:46 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: EQ_Express]
Forest Glen Offline
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The only time the 5 is needed is during rush hour. During all other times, it could be replaced by the 2 and 4.
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#468110 - 01/29/09 05:18 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Forest Glen]
R160Etrain Offline
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What if it was like this

(4)/<4>- Lexington Av Express
<6>-Lexington Av Express
(5)-Lexington Avenue Local
(6)-Lexington Avenue Local

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#468131 - 01/29/09 06:11 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R160Etrain]
EQ_Express Offline
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Too complicated switching at 125 St and Brooklyn Bridge leads to congestion.
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#468164 - 01/29/09 07:37 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R160Etrain]
R32_3348 Offline
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Registered: 03/25/07
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Loc: Jackson Heights
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Don't 5 trains rarely come? Plus aren't some 5 trains re-routed over lexington local and 7 Avenue? Plus don't 5 trains get a lot of delays?

Anyway how about you eliminate the Nereid <5> and have 5 trains go to Dyre Av all times. And due to the infrequency and delays on the 5 this should free up some space for the <4>.

(4)-Every 5 mins
<4>-Every 6 mins
(5)-every 6-7 mins

Check the schedule to see if trains come or not. 5 trains aren't rerouted over the Lex Local and 7th Avenue unless there is a service problem.

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#468171 - 01/29/09 10:39 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R32_3348]
RokuSix Offline


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I know it's been said before, but why are we going to fix something that's not broken? You can switch whichever Lex lines you want to express or local--but they're all going to be packed, as long as they're the only East Side trains.

1. You can't bloody eliminate the 5. Unless there's a shuttle...but, um, Dyre Avenue, anyone?

2. There are enough 6 trains to have it as the Lexington Local. If 6 trains are scheduled to come every 5 minutes or less, added 5 trains will just create Delay City.

3. And if the 5 is local, is it still going to go to Brooklyn?
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#468175 - 01/29/09 10:52 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: RokuSix]
EE Broadway Local Offline

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It sounds like switching numbers. If the (5) were to be the Lex Local, it would have to run the (6)'s route.
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#468212 - 01/30/09 01:11 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: EQ_Express]
A-train Offline
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Registered: 04/09/06
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Originally Posted By: EQ_Express
Originally Posted By: R160Etrain
Leave the <6> the way it is. It would be nice if the 5 was local as though. Then the 4 can run every 2-3 mins.

4-Lexingon Express/Woodlawn Local
<4>-Lexington Express/Woodlawn Express

5-Lexington Local
Dyre Av to Brooklyn Bridge
all times

6-Lexington Local
Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge
all times

<6>-Lexington Local/Pelham Express


1. The 4 will be absolutely OVERLOADED (only Lex express), and it's now the only train to the Financial District.

2. You can't put more trains on the Lex Line, even the local is at capacity.

3. Only real solution: BUILD THAT SAS!
#5 riders to the Bronx will not be happy if its local in Manhattan
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#468276 - 01/30/09 03:11 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: A-train]
BX41LTD Offline
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Loc: Morris Heights, The Bronx
During the rush hours some (5)s run local in Manhattan due to congestion. Even if the <6> was express in Manhattan, it would cause crazy congestion
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#468541 - 01/31/09 10:32 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: BX41LTD]
sebbieprops Offline
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The problem with a Manhattan express on the <6> is that during rush hour, it would be impossible to have a one-seat ride from the local Manhattan stations to the local Bronx stations.
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#468785 - 02/02/09 10:31 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: sebbieprops]
R160Etrain Offline
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(4)/<4> Lexington Express to Brooklyn
<6>Lexington Express to Brooklyn
(5) to Brooklyn Bridge
(6) to Brooklyn Bridge

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#468928 - 02/03/09 06:22 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R160Etrain]
cda Offline
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Registered: 02/24/08
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this has all been discussed before, basically it adds a lot of switching complications at 125th street (i.e. trains having to wait for others to pass in front of them), and the lex lines cannot handle ANY more slowdowns. check out the track map and think about it... it's kind of complicated but it should become clear...

http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/detail-125-lex.png
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#468943 - 02/03/09 10:41 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: BX41LTD]
Forest Glen Offline
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Originally Posted By: BX41LTD
During the rush hours some (5)s run local in Manhattan due to congestion. Even if the <6> was express in Manhattan, it would cause crazy congestion


I've heard of 5 trains operating via 7th Avenue, but I've never heard of 5's on the local track.
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#468962 - 02/04/09 01:22 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Forest Glen]
MikeGerald45 Offline
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Registered: 07/23/03
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Loc: Staten Island
The 125th Street-Lexington Avenue station can handle a variety of switching operations between the Woodlawn, White Plains-Dyre, Pelham Bay-Parkchester routes, and the Lexington AVenue local and express routes. What I am saying is that the station is capable of the switching operations, and the current routings are not that "hard-coded".

The problem is that those kinds of switching operations slows down the whole line. It is certainly possible for a Pelham Bay bound express train to arrive on the uptown express track at 125th Street, while a Parkchester local arrives at the same time on the uptown local track. Since there is only one Bronx-bound track for the Pelham Bay-Parkchester routes, one train will have to wait for the other train to leave the station first. Thus the trains behind these two are backed up.

There could easily be Lexington Avenue local trains from Woodlawn while White Plains-Dyre Avenue trains run express. However when such a pair arrive on the uptown tracks, one train will have to wait for the other to pass in front.

On the downtown side of things, a Pelham Bay express track and White Plains Road-Dyre Avenue express track can not enter the station at the same time, nor a Woodlawn local train and a Parkchester local train. These pairs use the local or express tracks, and thus cause bottlenecks. Thus the trains behind these two are backed up.

Right now, the 125th Lexington Avenue station while well equipped for switching operations, is used to switch trains around when there are problems. Right now, once the downtown #4 and #5 trains are combined on one track at 138th Street - there is no need to switch those trains around until Bowling Green or Franklin Avenue in Brooklyn, unless something goes wrong. Once downtown Parkchester and Pelham Bay trains are combined at the 138th Street-Third Avenue station, there is no need to switch those trains around, until those #6 trains return to the Bronx.

The way that the Lexington Avenue line is set up, most of the switch work for the routes is done in the Bronx, Brooklyn or at the Bowling Green - working the whole line simpler to operate. Thus the trains can run very frequently one after the other. The Lexington Avenue express stations can switch trains from one track to another when there are problems. Thus while the 125th Street station is very capable of the switch operations it is better to leave the routes the way they are, simply to allow a high number of trains per hour into and out of the station.

Mike

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#469003 - 02/04/09 04:00 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: MikeGerald45]
sebbieprops Offline
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Loc: Morrisania, Bronx NY
Originally Posted By: Lex Express
Originally Posted By: BX41LTD
During the rush hours some (5)s run local in Manhattan due to congestion. Even if the <6> was express in Manhattan, it would cause crazy congestion


I've heard of 5 trains operating via 7th Avenue, but I've never heard of 5's on the local track.


Same. I was on a 7th Avenue (5) in April 2008.
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#469057 - 02/04/09 08:11 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: sebbieprops]
Gtrain_hostage Offline
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Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 968
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had an apparently very very late 6 NB at 14th st last thurs(940pm) nb run lex exp/pelham exp last fri.. a pelhm bay signed lex local/pelha, lcl arrived simultaneously on NB local trk at 14th st.. much to the confusion of riders

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#469180 - 02/05/09 04:11 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: MikeGerald45]
cda Offline
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Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 249
Loc: East Williamsburg
mike, thanks for that eloquent explanation!!! smile
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#476132 - 03/28/09 11:29 AM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: cda]
BX41LTD Offline
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Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 492
Loc: Morris Heights, The Bronx
It could work, only if some (5) were sent via 7 Avenue
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#476211 - 03/28/09 11:44 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: BX41LTD]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 18592
Loc: Manhattan
How about: no? Leave the 5 alone. And ftr, some 5's are sent over to 7th Av, but those are cases where those 5's can only fit there. It should not be a standard service pattern.


Edited by Grand Concourse (03/28/09 11:44 PM)

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#476289 - 03/29/09 04:55 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: Grand Concourse]
R160Ftrain Offline
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Registered: 03/27/09
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to end this thread, <6> Lexington Avenue Express will cause nightmare congestion, and it will be a nightmare.
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#476403 - 03/29/09 11:46 PM Re: # 6 BRONX EXPRESS - express in manhattan? [Re: R160Ftrain]
Grand Concourse Offline
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Yes, exactly.

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