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#278826 - 03/29/06 03:04 PM North Shore Railroad Study
JetPropelledKid Offline
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Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 35
Loc: Staten Island
I know some people are interested about Staten Island's North Shore Railroad and its re-activation for passanger service. Well the report done by the PA is back on the Staten Island Borough Presidents webpage. In case it hasn't already been posted, here's a link . If you haven't seen it yet, it's very well done and features a number of designs and maps.

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#278827 - 03/29/06 08:05 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
South Ferry Shuttle Offline
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Thank you for finding this link!

It's frustrating that even when there is a demand for a service to be run over an intact ROW, we still can't get anything done. One day, I guess...


The document begs the questions:

A) Have they considered how expensive/beneficial it would be to extend service at least some of the way alongside or down the median of the West Shore Expressway, possibly setting up Park and Ride stations? Areas to be served could include Travis, Arden Heights, the new Fresh Kills Park (which will open in phases over the next decade or two) and even perhaps the Staten Island Mall. I can't imagine too many NIMBY problems in extending the ROW to run trains at least to a Travis Park and Ride.

Moving away from likely scenarios, I also wonder if a light rail service could be branched off near Port Richmond and sent down either the MLK Expressway median to the College of Staten Island or perhaps even past there down Richmond Avenue to the Staten Island Mall (not certain how best to snake ROW from CSI to Richmond Ave.), which are not only huge generators themselves but could become huge Park and Ride areas.

It goes without saying that it would be nice to make use of the extra ROW on the Bayonne Bridge to connect the North Shore service with HBLR, but that is even more far-fetched than my MLK/Richmond Avenue proposal right now.


B) What would it cost to convert existing SIR into a light rail system? How large a portion of the cost would be in purchasing a new fleet? The SIR fleet is due for a replacement soon, I believe. The advantages of this would be that we could have the benefits that come from a light rail system plus the interconnectivity than only heavy rail would offer at the present time.
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#278828 - 03/29/06 11:10 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
ajp8686 Offline
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Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Staten Island
http://www.siedc.net/projects_lightrail.html

Briefly discusses the possibility of a west shore line.

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#278829 - 03/30/06 03:13 AM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
South Ferry Shuttle Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ajp8686:
http://www.siedc.net/projects_lightrail.html

Briefly discusses the possibility of a west shore line.
Thanks for the link. That's pretty much my idea. It is a fairly obvious idea once you look at a map of Staten Island.
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#278830 - 03/30/06 05:29 AM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
ajp8686 Offline
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Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Staten Island
Quote:
Originally posted by South Ferry Shuttle:
Quote:
Originally posted by ajp8686:
http://www.siedc.net/projects_lightrail.html

Briefly discusses the possibility of a west shore line.
Thanks for the link. That's pretty much my idea. It is a fairly obvious idea once you look at a map of Staten Island.
No problem - and agreed about the map.

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#278831 - 03/30/06 05:47 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
Chemmy Offline

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Was it ever used for passenger service or was it always freight?

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#278832 - 03/30/06 10:24 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
mets15 Offline
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Registered: 06/21/05
Posts: 3584
Loc: Knickerbocker Avenue on the (M...
Quote:
Originally posted by Chemmy:
Was it ever used for passenger service or was it always freight?
It formerly ran passenger service until the 70/80's period or so, and frieght service ended in the early 90's.
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#278833 - 03/30/06 11:33 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
Chemmy Offline

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oh, you see.. Good thing you're around. I though pax svc ran until the 90's and that freight svc was still around.

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#278834 - 03/31/06 12:59 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
South Ferry Shuttle Offline
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Passenger service on the North Shore line and the South Beach line ended in 1953. The South Beach line was dismantled, like the previous posted noted, while freight service ended in about 1990 on the North Shore line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staten_Island_Railway

This page has good background on the North Shore line as well as links to more information.


http://www.thethirdrail.net/0201/index.html

This link has a lot of historical information on the entire Staten Island rail system.
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#278835 - 04/04/06 01:35 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
Chemmy Offline

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Thanks for the additional info. Is it me or is SI closer to Jersey than NYC?

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#278836 - 04/04/06 02:18 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
South Ferry Shuttle Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chemmy:
Thanks for the additional info. Is it me or is SI closer to Jersey than NYC?
There are only two plausible direct routes from Staten Island to Manhattan - through Hudson County, New Jersey or through Brooklyn. Hudson County is not only closer, but the infrastructure is almost completely in place:

A) The Bayonne Bridge was designed to carry two additional lanes for either vehicular or rail traffic - much easier to accomplish than the "let's modify the V-N Bridge schemes" that we float sometimes. Of course, a bus service could be started tomorrow with no capital improvement...;

B) The rail infrastructure on the Jersey side exists as far south in Bayonne as 23rd Street, with existing plans to extend to 8th Street, maybe a thousand feet from the Bayonne Bridge.

C) The ROW is already intact on Staten Island's north shore and part of the West Shore, with obvious ROW extension corridors along the West Shore Expressway, if not down the MLK Jr. Expressway median and on down to Richmond Avenue and further south. The rail along the West Shore Expressway is already being rehabilitated for freight/garbage delivery - perhaps it could also be used for passenger service? If not, there's enough unused land to build a different ROW.

A project to bring Staten Islanders to PATH via HBLR, at least by bus if not eventually by rail, is a no-brainer. It's like a rail tunnel already existed under Second Avenue and we just build the stations. It is unbelievable that a constituency has not developed to put the pieces together.

As another aside, thinking well into the future, if service from Staten Island's West and North Shore to Bayonne were ever established, it could become a large piece of the quickest route from Middlesex County and thereabouts to lower Manhattan and Jersey City.
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#278837 - 04/04/06 09:18 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
ajp8686 Offline
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Registered: 03/19/06
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Loc: Staten Island
Even with bus or rail service over the Bayonne bridge, it's still a multiple seat/fare ride.

- Bus/Rail Over Bayonne Bridge to 8th Street Station (future) on Hudson-Bergen Light Rail (Assuming $2.00 Standard Local Fare)
- Travel on HBLR to Exchange Place or Hoboken ($1.75)
- Take PATH into Manhattan ($1.50)
- Possible Subway Ride ($0.00 - MetroCard Transfer)

That's $5.25 one way, $10.50 round trip for a three, or possibly four seat ride. What's the incentive over an express bus with a one seat ride directly into Manhattan.

(I based all fares on standard one way travel, ignoring discounts for multi-ride tickets/MetroCard.)

Don't get me wrong, I'd welcome the introduction of any and all new transit options for Staten Island, especially those involving rail.

Do you think it would be ever be possible for a direct rail link from S.I. through Jersey into Manhattan? Maybe using HBLR trackage? I don't know, its probably not feasible in the least but I think such a connection would be more ideal.

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#278838 - 04/05/06 10:47 AM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
South Ferry Shuttle Offline
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Certainly a rail connection with HBLR is ideal, but even with a multi-seat, multi-fare trip, that connection would provide a way to get from parts of Staten Island to midtown and downtown Manhattan in under an hour during rush hour, which is not always possible with current transportation.

Staten Islanders (myself included on occassion) with pay $5 for express bus because from certain parts of Manhattan to certain parts of Staten Island, it provides the fastest and most direct route, even though it is cramped, uncomfortable, rides like a horse, and sometimes gets stuck in traffic that makes you wish you took the train and ferry. Staten Islanders will also take bus-to-train-to-ferry-to-train if that's what's fastest. Price and number of transfers are no obstacle if the service is faster than other modes of transit.
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#278839 - 04/05/06 02:47 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
ajp8686 Offline
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Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Staten Island
Can't disagree with you there - the ability to make that commute in under an hour probably outweighs any disadvantages inlcuding the price and number of transfers.

I do wish that some day there could be a one seat ride straight from Staten Island into Manhattan.

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#278840 - 04/05/06 03:25 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
transit buff Offline
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Registered: 11/10/02
Posts: 2445
Loc: Flushing,N.Y
while SI needs a real subway, (obviously the SAS is needed more), this would be a good & cheaper start & if gave a one seat ride even better

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#278841 - 04/05/06 05:54 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
Chemmy Offline

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I doubt SI will ever get a subway. SAS stands a better chance of being built.

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#278842 - 04/07/06 02:25 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
Forest Glen Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chemmy:
Thanks for the additional info. Is it me or is SI closer to Jersey than NYC?
You're correct. In fact, a few SI express buses travel through Jersey to get to Manhattan.
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#278843 - 04/07/06 04:36 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
Staten Island Railway Offline
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Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 371
Loc: Staten Island
Quote:
Originally posted by L Train:
Quote:
Originally posted by Chemmy:
Thanks for the additional info. Is it me or is SI closer to Jersey than NYC?
You're correct. In fact, a few SI express buses travel through Jersey to get to Manhattan.
Not anymore, they all got rerouted through Brooklyn via the new bus lanes.

SI could use a subway system under some of the moajor roads but that'll never happen. Why couldn't there be a SIMT or SIIND or SIIRT? They just forgot about us.

Quote:
Originally posted by South Ferry Shuttle:
Staten Islanders will also take bus-to-train-to-ferry-to-train if that's what's fastest. Price and number of transfers are no obstacle if the service is faster than other modes of transit.
That's for sure, I'm pretty sure there are some people who walk take the bus to the SIR, take the ferry and then a train/bus in the city. I have to do the same thing when going out of the borugh but without the SIR.

They have really got to invest in some heavy rail, no light rail, they could feed in to the ferry or something.

From my observations, the North Shore Line's ROW is only intact from the Mariner's Harbor area to Port Richmond. After that the elevated row ventures off behind the sanitation building and the rest of the ROW up until the Ball Park station was built on/over since it's demise.

It would require some ship docks, warehouses (and there's a whole bunch on Richmond Terrace) and some houses to be torn down and a lot of land modification to restore the line. Unless they make the line elevated or a subway under Richmond Terrace from Port Richmond to New Brighton, there's no hope for this line getting restored. I did notice however, like 6 hours ago, if you look down at the ROW a little after the Ball Park Station, a single track continues fenced off for a few hundred feet, but there's a cutoff of third rail shortly after the the station and starts again a little after.

Hopefully it'll get done, I don't know though, it seems to be a competition among the North Shore and West Shore, we get the ferry terminal renovated, thy get the Eltingville thing built, we want a North Shore Line, they want a West Shore Line...
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#278844 - 04/07/06 07:06 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
South Ferry Shuttle Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Staten Island Railway:
From my observations, the North Shore Line's ROW is only intact from the Mariner's Harbor area to Port Richmond. After that the elevated row ventures off behind the sanitation building and the rest of the ROW up until the Ball Park station was built on/over since it's demise.
The ROW is almost entirely intact, though some parts are in better shape than others. Take a look at the link in the intial post. (On edit: The document confirms that the city would have to reconfigure a piece of roadway to make up for the piece of ROW lost due to the construction of the ballpark.)
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#278845 - 04/07/06 08:09 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
Staten Island Railway Offline
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Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 371
Loc: Staten Island
That's false, a good portion of the ROW was built over around the corner of Jersey Street and Richmond Terrace. There used to be a bridge over the ROW but they tore it down and when they built the new SI Ferry/Ball Park parking lot, they built a direct road across the old ROW instead of over it, so the line would either have to dip under the road or go over it.

A few views of the line from Windows Live Local,

The intersection built over the ROW

The dilapated Port Richmond station

Close-to-abandoned warehouses over the ROW, although it does looks as though the line ran through it

Salt thing built over ROW

Over near the old Snug Harbor Station, talk about neglect

The dock built over the ROW, I wonder were they would put a station

Mariners Harbor Station, look at how empty the Bayonne Bridge is

Near the Arthur Kil Bridge with the West...different today
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S89 LIMITED
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#278846 - 04/07/06 11:25 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
ajp8686 Offline
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Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Staten Island
Quote:
Not anymore, they all got rerouted through Brooklyn via the new bus lanes.
The X22 and X30 as well as the X23 & X24 (Atlantic Express) continue to use the Goethal's Bridge/New Jersey Turnpike/Lincoln Tunnel.

The X17J and X31's were re-routed.

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#278847 - 04/07/06 11:40 PM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
MACTRAXX Offline
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SFS: Note my post in the SI seeks link to HBLR section. Good writing! It makes perfect sense for a LRT extension via the Bayonne Bridge to the western part of SI-preferably to go towards SI mall-which would generate lots of ridership. A bus is absolutely a no-brainer as you said. AJP: I am all for simplifying fares-NJT,PATH and NYCT would have to come up with a plan for a flexible cash fare and pass type to nip potential fare problems in the bud. I am all for making fares as flexible and simple as possible. Some co-operation is already being done-for example PATH going with PPR Metrocard in favor of their own quickcard. As for E/W train service on SIs N shore-that should be tied into the SIRT as it once was. Port Richmond would get a transit center with HBLR,SIRT and buses if the routing can work. Transit flexibility and convenience is the name of the game-to end SI being a mass transit "dead end" so to speak. MACTRAXX
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#278848 - 04/08/06 01:07 AM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
South Ferry Shuttle Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Staten Island Railway:
That's false, a good portion of the ROW was built over around the corner of Jersey Street and Richmond Terrace. There used to be a bridge over the ROW but they tore it down and when they built the new SI Ferry/Ball Park parking lot, they built a direct road across the old ROW instead of over it, so the line would either have to dip under the road or go over it.
My bad - you're right, and the document mentioned in the initial thread mentions that. However, it's a very short segment of the ROW, and it's on city land - no deal breaker if the project ever gained momentum. When I think of a ROW being less than intact, I think of an example like the South Beach ROW, which has houses and a toll plaza on it.
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#278849 - 04/08/06 01:13 AM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
Staten Island Railway Offline
Bus Driver

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 371
Loc: Staten Island
Wow, you guys have some really good plans but too bad none won't ever get done anytime soon. An HBLR extension is good and wonderful but we need something now and a bus line would do it. An extension isn't something that's going to get done in a month but setting up a bus line could. So no it isn't a no-brainer, it's the best SI-transit related idea we've had in awhile and something tells me that they came up with that idea because they know there won't be a HBLR extension.

The ferry is fine, an underwater tube under the Harbor? If they really wanted the E/W to go to SI, it would've been done already. All we're asking for is a North Shore Line and maybe a West Shore extension from it.

And once again, Port Richmond isn't really the best area to center a transit center in. I think Richmond Ave and Forest Ave would be better. And besides, there's a big incline from the top of the bridge to where it ends so the HBLR would need to make a u-turn, and then head east towards Port Richmond, which is a good distance from the bridge.
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#278850 - 04/08/06 02:37 AM Re: North Shore Railroad Study
ajp8686 Offline
Tourist

Registered: 03/19/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Staten Island
Quote:
The ferry is fine, an underwater tube under the Harbor?
True, the ferry is fine - but one can wish!

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