How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?

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#93993 - 04/05/06 11:55 PM How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?
TheUpperWestSide TheUpperWestSide Tourist Registered: 09/18/05 Posts: 33 Loc: Manhattan	Yes, it may seem like an odd question at first but I'm talking about how the original IRT subway got from 33rd St to what (I suppose) is the current Grand Central shuttle station. Its easy to figure out how things were changed on the West Side, but as far as the East Side goes its another story. I mean, the Lex Grand Central station is on a lower level then the shuttle station no? As you can see I'm damn well confused. Can anyone clarify this for me?
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#93994 - 04/06/06 06:08 AM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?
3 Train 3 Train Straphanger Registered: 07/02/04 Posts: 264 Loc: Manhattan	If I remembered correctly on track 1 at Grand Central Station the track continues down and connects to where the downtown 6 is. When your on the 6 after Grand Central you can sometimes see where that track conncects.
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#93995 - 04/06/06 06:30 AM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?
CONCOURSE CASANOVA CONCOURSE CASANOVA Bus Driver Registered: 04/15/04 Posts: 370	Quote: Originally posted by TheUpperWestSide: Yes, it may seem like an odd question at first but I'm talking about how the original IRT subway got from 33rd St to what (I suppose) is the current Grand Central shuttle station. Its easy to figure out how things were changed on the West Side, but as far as the East Side goes its another story. I mean, the Lex Grand Central station is on a lower level then the shuttle station no? As you can see I'm damn well confused. Can anyone clarify this for me? You know that long tunnel that you walk through to the shuttle from Grand Central. That used to be where the tracks were. Now there is only 1 track left.
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#93996 - 04/06/06 12:38 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?
Allan Allan TWU President Registered: 10/05/00 Posts: 3213 Loc: N.E. Bronx, NY	Quote: Originally posted by CONCOURSE CASANOVA: Quote: You know that long tunnel that you walk through to the shuttle from Grand Central. That used to be where the tracks were. Now there is only 1 track left. Actually - No. That passageway was built with the intention of extending the 2 of the shuttle tracks closer to the Lexington Av line mezzanine. Underneath the concrete floor are 2 trackways (it was going to be a center island platform). The project died in the 1920's and tracks were never installed. Until the 1970's the floor was wooden. The original line curved just underneath the passenger entrance to the shuttle from Grand Central Terminal. _________________________ "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others" - Groucho
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#93997 - 04/06/06 12:54 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?
Allan Allan TWU President Registered: 10/05/00 Posts: 3213 Loc: N.E. Bronx, NY	Quote: Originally posted by TheUpperWestSide: Yes, it may seem like an odd question at first but I'm talking about how the original IRT subway got from 33rd St to what (I suppose) is the current Grand Central shuttle station. Its easy to figure out how things were changed on the West Side, but as far as the East Side goes its another story. I mean, the Lex Grand Central station is on a lower level then the shuttle station no? As you can see I'm damn well confused. Can anyone clarify this for me? The original line curved to the left (west) just before where the current Lex Av line Grand Central station is located. The line continued on what is now the 42nd St shuttle to Times Square and then up the Broadway line. The Grand Central station on the shuttle is the original station which opened in 1904. If you notice that one platform is extra wide, that is because the old downtown express track is covered over. This occurred after shuttle service started in 1918. If you look out the right side of the train on track 1 (heading to Times Sq) or the left side of the train on track 3 (heading to Times Sq) you will see the roadbed for the downtown express track. The Times Square station on the original line was built as a local station. The platform marked "Track 3" is actually on the roadbed of the original downtown express track. The Lexington Avenue line (from Grand Central northward) and the 7th Avenue line (from Times Square southward) were opened in 1918. This map may help: http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/irt_1906_railways_guide_54.gif As already mentioned track 1 on the shuttle connects to the downtown local track on the 6. At the other end (Times Square) track 4 connects to the uptown local track on the 1. There is no connection between track 1 or track 4 on the shuttle. This track map will illustrate that (around the middle of the page). http://www.nycsubway.org/maps/track/bigmidtown.png _________________________ "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others" - Groucho
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#93998 - 04/06/06 01:24 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?
Brighton Line Brighton Line Federal Transit Administration Rep. Registered: 02/16/01 Posts: 5517 Loc: Brooklyn,NY, US	Great Job Allan, I believe I'll feature this topic for awhile with your excellent answer. _________________________ Brighton Line Still can't find the "Any Key" on my keyboard. I can't continue.
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#93999 - 04/06/06 06:47 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?
TheUpperWestSide TheUpperWestSide Tourist Registered: 09/18/05 Posts: 33 Loc: Manhattan	Wow, thanks for the help Allan. Though the tracks must've risen quite a bit to get to the shuttle station from 33rd St, no? Sucks to find out that the original subway route can never be completely replicated. While the Grand Central side of the shuttle seems to be fine and dandy, I can't say the same for the Times Square side. It needs some fixing in more ways than one. I recall always being perplexed as a child watching the TS station to the right as I headed up/down the 7th Ave. TS station and wondering why can I see that station through the tunnel and why was it placed there?
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#94000 - 04/06/06 07:00 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?
Chemmy Chemmy Lord of the Post Registered: 02/21/02 Posts: 13579 Loc: Howard Beach NY	You can actually see the 7th Ave line whizzing by on the section that took it uptown after it crossed at 42nd Street. It's like being in the tunnel itself!
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#94001 - 04/06/06 09:00 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?
Allan Allan TWU President Registered: 10/05/00 Posts: 3213 Loc: N.E. Bronx, NY	Quote: Originally posted by TheUpperWestSide: Wow, thanks for the help Allan. Though the tracks must've risen quite a bit to get to the shuttle station from 33rd St, no? Sucks to find out that the original subway route can never be completely replicated. While the Grand Central side of the shuttle seems to be fine and dandy, I can't say the same for the Times Square side. It needs some fixing in more ways than one. I recall always being perplexed as a child watching the TS station to the right as I headed up/down the 7th Ave. TS station and wondering why can I see that station through the tunnel and why was it placed there? You're welcome. In actuality it didn't rise that much. I did neglect to include another link. This one is to a page on the Library of Congress's website. You will find a film (in 2 parts) taken of the subway less than 7 months after it opened. There are 3 types of files. The Real time (.ram) file can't be downloaded but can be played on screen. The quality of this one is poor. The Windows media and Quicktime versions are much better and can be downloaded but I would not recommend anyone with a dial-up connection doing that because it could take almost 2 hours at 56K. Part 1 goes from 14th St to 33rd St. You will pass the now closed 18th St station. Notice that the local platforms are shorter than they are today. They were designed to hold 5 car local trains. Part 2 goes from 33rd St to Grand Central station. You can see how the wall curved to the left leading to the station. [long link ahead] http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?pa...pan,vv,presp,va rstg,suffrg,nawbib,horyd,wtc,toddbib,mgw,ncr,ngp,musdibib,hlaw,papr,lhbumbib,rbpebib,lbcoll,alad,hh,aaodyssey,magbell,bbcards,dcm,raelbib,runyon,dukesm,lomaxbib,mtj,gottlieb,aep,ql t,coolbib,fpnas,aasm,scsm,denn,relpet,amss,aaeo,mffbib,afc911bib,mjm,mnwp,rbcmillerbib,molden,ww2map,hawp,cwband,flwpabib,wpapos,cmns,psbib,pin,coplandbib,cola,tccc,curt,mharendt,l hbcbbib,eaa,haybib,mesnbib,fine,cwnyhs,llstbib,fawbib,berl,fmuever,cdn,upboverbib,mussm,cic,afcpearl,awh,awhbib,sgp,wright,lhbtnbib,afcesnbib,hurstonbib,mreynoldsbib,spaldingbib,sg proto,omhbib,rbaapcbib,mal,ncpsbib,ncpm,lhbprbib,ftvbib,afcreed,aipn,svybib,mmorse,afcwwgbib,mymhiwebib,uncall,mfd,afcwip,mtaft,manz _________________________ "Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others" - Groucho
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#94002 - 04/06/06 10:14 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side?
TheUpperWestSide TheUpperWestSide Tourist Registered: 09/18/05 Posts: 33 Loc: Manhattan	Yeah, I've seen the film before, yesterday again as a matter of fact. Pretty short 5-car platforms they were back then. Sad to see the abandoned stations today inundated with graffiti. They should have at least some of their design elements ripped off, cleaned up and put on an exhibit in the Transit Museum.
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#366192 - 03/31/07 08:34 AM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: TheUpperWestSide]
Manhattan_bound Manhattan_bound Bus Driver Registered: 03/30/07 Posts: 445 Loc: New York	Originally Posted By: TheUpperWestSide Yes, it may seem like an odd question at first but I'm talking about how the original IRT subway got from 33rd St to what (I suppose) is the current Grand Central shuttle station. Its easy to figure out how things were changed on the West Side, but as far as the East Side goes its another story. I mean, the Lex Grand Central station is on a lower level then the shuttle station no? As you can see I'm damn well confused. Can anyone clarify this for me? There is a track connection, but it is impossible to connect the 456 to the 123 via the shuttle line. Otherwise they would use the south ferry loop, bronx, or brooklyn to connect _________________________ This is an A train to Jay St Borough Hall. The next stop is 161st, stand clear of the closing doors.
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#366361 - 04/03/07 11:45 AM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Manhattan_bound]
R62A 2012 R62A 2012 Lord of the Post Registered: 11/06/02 Posts: 11121 Loc: NJ	Only shuttle track 1 connects to the East Side IRT. Track 1 is severed from 3 and 4. _________________________ The R36 Celebrating 40 years on land and at sea 1964-2004
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#366367 - 04/03/07 12:10 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: R62A 2012]
Brighton Line Brighton Line Federal Transit Administration Rep. Registered: 02/16/01 Posts: 5517 Loc: Brooklyn,NY, US	BTW, there are plans to rebuild the Time Square station of the shuttle. They were put on hold the last time I checked. _________________________ Brighton Line Still can't find the "Any Key" on my keyboard. I can't continue.
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#366368 - 04/03/07 12:48 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Brighton Line]
Manhattan_bound Manhattan_bound Bus Driver Registered: 03/30/07 Posts: 445 Loc: New York	I hope so, because it is a pain just to direct the train in brooklyn or the bronx, just to get to the east side. _________________________ This is an A train to Jay St Borough Hall. The next stop is 161st, stand clear of the closing doors.
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#366394 - 04/03/07 04:31 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Brighton Line]
Grand Concourse Grand Concourse Lord of the Post Registered: 06/26/02 Posts: 18258 Loc: Manhattan	If they reconstruct the new TS station to hold 5-car trains then it will be worth it as it will no longer mean they would need the single units for just the shuttle and can give them to all to the 7 to use.
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#366437 - 04/03/07 09:58 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Grand Concourse]
R62A 2012 R62A 2012 Lord of the Post Registered: 11/06/02 Posts: 11121 Loc: NJ	Then they could simply use 5-car R62s from the 3. _________________________ The R36 Celebrating 40 years on land and at sea 1964-2004
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#366448 - 04/04/07 12:09 AM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: R62A 2012]
Grand Concourse Grand Concourse Lord of the Post Registered: 06/26/02 Posts: 18258 Loc: Manhattan	Yes. And the 4 can run R62A's either the 5-car sets or the singles no longer needed on the shuttle.
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#366486 - 04/04/07 01:34 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Grand Concourse]
Brighton Line Brighton Line Federal Transit Administration Rep. Registered: 02/16/01 Posts: 5517 Loc: Brooklyn,NY, US	I had a conversation with someone in the TA a few months ago and I'm trying to remember what he said. Something like the track would be straightened toward GCT and the plat would be for 5 cars so they can use R142's and go to true OPTO once all three tracks were modified. _________________________ Brighton Line Still can't find the "Any Key" on my keyboard. I can't continue.
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#366559 - 04/05/07 05:34 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Brighton Line]
Grand Concourse Grand Concourse Lord of the Post Registered: 06/26/02 Posts: 18258 Loc: Manhattan	That would be a waste of the r142 for just a shuttle, but i can understand they would use those in terms of added room as they don't have the half cabs in every car and just the 2 full width ones on each end. All 3? I thought the idea was to fix only 2 and just abandon the 3rd one [track 4]?
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#366699 - 04/09/07 02:10 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Grand Concourse]
Brighton Line Brighton Line Federal Transit Administration Rep. Registered: 02/16/01 Posts: 5517 Loc: Brooklyn,NY, US	Like I said I don't recall all the details. I'll take notes next time $;\)$ _________________________ Brighton Line Still can't find the "Any Key" on my keyboard. I can't continue.
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#366703 - 04/09/07 03:16 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Brighton Line]
Manhattan_bound Manhattan_bound Bus Driver Registered: 03/30/07 Posts: 445 Loc: New York	all off ur ideas are good. However some of the trains u metioned would cause a lot of pain just to connect to the shuttle. I mean like the 7. Gotta connect to the N, then to the D via yards, then the 4, then the 6 and then finally the Shuttle. _________________________ This is an A train to Jay St Borough Hall. The next stop is 161st, stand clear of the closing doors.
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#366755 - 04/10/07 03:02 AM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Manhattan_bound]
Grand Concourse Grand Concourse Lord of the Post Registered: 06/26/02 Posts: 18258 Loc: Manhattan	Not really, how do you think the 4 ended up with the 7's R62A's? All that's being said is once the shuttle can run 5-car trains then a 5-car set can be sent to the S and the singles simply be sent to the 7 or just used on the 3/4 lines. And Brighton, np I just thought that it wasn't really needed for track 4 to be used if they have 10 cars total for the shuttle.
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#366818 - 04/10/07 09:41 PM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Grand Concourse]
R62A 2012 R62A 2012 Lord of the Post Registered: 11/06/02 Posts: 11121 Loc: NJ	Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse Yes. And the 4 can run R62A's either the 5-car sets or the singles no longer needed on the shuttle. Or simply send the excess single R62As to the 7. _________________________ The R36 Celebrating 40 years on land and at sea 1964-2004
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#366822 - 04/11/07 12:26 AM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: R62A 2012]
Grand Concourse Grand Concourse Lord of the Post Registered: 06/26/02 Posts: 18258 Loc: Manhattan	I would like it if they took like the 21xx's and started to link them into 5-car sets and maybe some 20xx's. the 19xx's can all be singles and tacked on the end of the trains. Some 10-car sets already have their cab doors folded in including some 17xx's so having the 20xx-21xx linked as 5-car sets won't be a big deal and it would make the cars better in the long run rather than to keep them as singles. Edited by Grand Concourse (04/11/07 12:27 AM)
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#366825 - 04/11/07 02:03 AM Re: How did the original subway get from the East to the West Side? [Re: Grand Concourse]
R62A 2012 R62A 2012 Lord of the Post Registered: 11/06/02 Posts: 11121 Loc: NJ	Some cars on the 7 are currently coupled in consecutive order, suggesting that they would be linked some time in the future. _________________________ The R36 Celebrating 40 years on land and at sea 1964-2004
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