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#425840 - 06/11/08 04:26 PM Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good?
EE Broadway Local Online   content
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Considering how New York has changed since 1976, might a (V) - (Z) combination be good with possible expansion to midday service between Essex Street and Jamaica Center and evening service to Second Avenue? I would consider keeping either the (V) or the (Z) letter for the combined route.

Edited by EE Broadway Local (06/11/08 04:32 PM)
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#425845 - 06/11/08 06:02 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: EE Broadway Local]
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Gene Russianoff
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Hey EE you been on the boards a while. This propsal has been made by many people on here.
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#426037 - 06/12/08 11:13 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: R-7 SEPTA Local]
guypak Offline
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I don't think combining the V and Z would be a good option.
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#426042 - 06/12/08 11:26 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: guypak]
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Gene Russianoff
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 Originally Posted By: guypak
I don't think combining the V and Z would be a good option.



Why not? While i personally myself prefer to extend the "V" to Church Ave at least during rush hours, it better than current set up of teminating it at 2nd Ave/Houston.

Plus a reopened 'direct 1-seat' line to Midtown from the Williamsburg Bridge/Nassau lines too("J/Z" & "M" lines)that could help a little with the overcrowded "L" line.

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#426345 - 06/13/08 09:52 AM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: R-7 SEPTA Local]
R32_3838 Offline
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I agree, I would like to take a one seat trip between the nassau st line and midtown mahattan and they should call it the (K).
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#426364 - 06/13/08 02:16 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: R32_3838]
shadyelstation Offline
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Although this has been discussed many a time before, I believe combining the (M) and (V) into one line would be a good idea.

The (V) and the (Z)...not so much, however; IMO such a combo does less to relieve the (L) than an M/V combo would. Plus, the (M) is the shorter of the J/M/Z lines and as such would be the line to combine IMO.
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#426381 - 06/13/08 05:35 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: shadyelstation]
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The only reasons I am against an M-V combo is because I have plans for the V line in terms of fantasy extensions.

The reason I am against the V-Z combo is that I ave extension plans for both lines.
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#426437 - 06/14/08 01:33 AM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: R32_3348]
guypak Offline
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 Originally Posted By: R32_3348
The only reasons I am against an M-V combo is because I have plans for the V line in terms of fantasy extensions.

The reason I am against the V-Z combo is that I ave extension plans for both lines.


I am the same way, but the letters of the lines could always change.

With and V/Z combo it just makes the route too long and goes in almost a complete circle.

With an M/V combo, the line isn't as long, even though it is still almost in a literal circle.
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#426480 - 06/14/08 03:03 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: EE Broadway Local]
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 Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local
Considering how New York has changed since 1976, might a (V) - (Z) combination be good with possible expansion to midday service between Essex Street and Jamaica Center and evening service to Second Avenue? I would consider keeping either the (V) or the (Z) letter for the combined route.


Perhaps a V-Z-L combo from Canarsie to Forest Hills via Willy-B and 6th Avenue? (Would there even be enough capacity on the Willy-B for the J/Z, M, and V?)
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#427090 - 06/19/08 12:53 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: guypak]
shadyelstation Offline
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 Originally Posted By: guypak
 Originally Posted By: R32_3348
The only reasons I am against an M-V combo is because I have plans for the V line in terms of fantasy extensions.

The reason I am against the V-Z combo is that I ave extension plans for both lines.


I am the same way, but the letters of the lines could always change.

With and V/Z combo it just makes the route too long and goes in almost a complete circle.

With an M/V combo, the line isn't as long, even though it is still almost in a literal circle.

The thing is, even though the M/V route is roundabout, it's not meant for "terminal to terminal" riders. It functions like the current (V) while giving Metropolitan/B'way Bklyn riders one-seat Midtown access. What's more, since Qns Blvd - Midtown riders and Metropolitan - Midtown riders ride in opposite directions, IMO crowding won't be too big an issue, even with increased ridership.
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#427091 - 06/19/08 12:57 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Gotham Bus Co.]
shadyelstation Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Gotham Bus Co.
 Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local
Considering how New York has changed since 1976, might a (V) - (Z) combination be good with possible expansion to midday service between Essex Street and Jamaica Center and evening service to Second Avenue? I would consider keeping either the (V) or the (Z) letter for the combined route.


Perhaps a V-Z-L combo from Canarsie to Forest Hills via Willy-B and 6th Avenue? (Would there even be enough capacity on the Willy-B for the J/Z, M, and V?)

Why bring the (L) into this? The bulk of the crowding comes from the segment west of Eastern Pkwy; IMO that's the segment you want to relieve. For this reason I don't think combining the (V), (Z), and (L) is a good idea.
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#427158 - 06/19/08 04:59 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: shadyelstation]
Grand Concourse Online   content
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 Originally Posted By: shadyelstation
The thing is, even though the M/V route is roundabout, it's not meant for "terminal to terminal" riders. It functions like the current (V) while giving Metropolitan/B'way Bklyn riders one-seat Midtown access. What's more, since Qns Blvd - Midtown riders and Metropolitan - Midtown riders ride in opposite directions, IMO crowding won't be too big an issue, even with increased ridership.
Well said. Exactly, the point of that combo is not for a person to ride the whole line from terminal to terminal, but to maximize use on both ends as middays:
M ends at Chambers, V ends at 2nd Av. It is no wonder they are practically empty by the time they reach their terminals as the riders would take the J/4 or F respectively to continue further.
Now having the combined route you allow M riders to go directly to Midtown without having to transfer to the L [M riders stays on M and not transfer at Myrtle-Wyckoff] or F [riders don't have to transfer at Delancy-Essex] and the V side would finally go to Brooklyn, which should make it at least more useful than everyone waiting for the F to show up.
Final point by combining the lines you trim off some stations on each lines and the M running 8-car trains you then have to make the 'V's end' run 8-car 60' trains as well meaning a surplus of cars to give to say the G line.
This is why such a plan should be looked into.

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#427236 - 06/20/08 06:27 AM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Grand Concourse]
Sam Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse
 Originally Posted By: shadyelstation
The thing is, even though the M/V route is roundabout, it's not meant for "terminal to terminal" riders. It functions like the current (V) while giving Metropolitan/B'way Bklyn riders one-seat Midtown access. What's more, since Qns Blvd - Midtown riders and Metropolitan - Midtown riders ride in opposite directions, IMO crowding won't be too big an issue, even with increased ridership.
Well said. Exactly, the point of that combo is not for a person to ride the whole line from terminal to terminal, but to maximize use on both ends as middays:
M ends at Chambers, V ends at 2nd Av. It is no wonder they are practically empty by the time they reach their terminals as the riders would take the J/4 or F respectively to continue further.
Now having the combined route you allow M riders to go directly to Midtown without having to transfer to the L [M riders stays on M and not transfer at Myrtle-Wyckoff] or F [riders don't have to transfer at Delancy-Essex] and the V side would finally go to Brooklyn, which should make it at least more useful than everyone waiting for the F to show up.
Final point by combining the lines you trim off some stations on each lines and the M running 8-car trains you then have to make the 'V's end' run 8-car 60' trains as well meaning a surplus of cars to give to say the G line.
This is why such a plan should be looked into.


Very well said!
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#427281 - 06/20/08 08:04 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Sam]
Alon Offline
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Registered: 08/25/07
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It's common for lines to have routings that don't make sense terminal-to-terminal. The BRT intended to have loop lines connecting the East River bridges. Toronto has a subway line shaped like a narrow U, which competes with the Lex express tracks for busiest two-track rapid transit line in North America. In the past the line was routed differently, so that it crossed itself. Singapore is constructing a new subway line that will cross itself as well, and another subway line that will look like a spiral.
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#427517 - 06/22/08 04:29 AM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Alon]
Ridgewoodian Offline
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No doubt midtown service on ANY of the Nassau St. lines would be a huge improvement over what we have now but I agree with most of the posters here: it would be best if that line were the (M) since it would help relieve crowding on the (L).

Of course, I don't think this is going to happen for the simple reason that Park Slopers want the (V) for themselves. When I brought up the idea at the Transit Riders' Forum a few months ago that's basically what I was told. Never mind that they already have midtown access and giving them the (V) would only enhance their service, whereas combining the (M) and (V) would create a brand new and much needed service; they're Brooklyn, they have clout.

I wonder, though, if it would be possible to do BOTH. Run the (V) to Church Ave. and modify the (M) to run uptown along 6th Ave and then CPW, terminating at 145th St. Does anyone know if this is technically possible?

And assuming it is, how does one go about getting the MTA to implement the change in our lifetime?
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#427640 - 06/22/08 04:28 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Ridgewoodian]
Sam Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Ridgewoodian
No doubt midtown service on ANY of the Nassau St. lines would be a huge improvement over what we have now but I agree with most of the posters here: it would be best if that line were the (M) since it would help relieve crowding on the (L).

Of course, I don't think this is going to happen for the simple reason that Park Slopers want the (V) for themselves. When I brought up the idea at the Transit Riders' Forum a few months ago that's basically what I was told. Never mind that they already have midtown access and giving them the (V) would only enhance their service, whereas combining the (M) and (V) would create a brand new and much needed service; they're Brooklyn, they have clout.

I wonder, though, if it would be possible to do BOTH. Run the (V) to Church Ave. and modify the (M) to run uptown along 6th Ave and then CPW, terminating at 145th St. Does anyone know if this is technically possible?

And assuming it is, how does one go about getting the MTA to implement the change in our lifetime?


It's theoretically possible; the switches are there. However, having M's cross over onto the express tracks would slow down service on the B and D. The M combined with the V offers the greatest benefit as you've already noted.

As for the MTA implementing service changes in our lifetime, fugettaboutit! I've been waiting since 1976 for the restoration of the Chrystie Connector service since the K was discontinued.
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#427759 - 06/23/08 09:37 AM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Sam]
Ridgewoodian Offline
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[As for the MTA implementing service changes in our lifetime, fugettaboutit! I've been waiting since 1976 for the restoration of the Chrystie Connector service since the K was discontinued. [/quote]

Who's up for a good old peasants-with-pitchforks REVOLUTION?
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#427827 - 06/23/08 07:57 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Sam]
Grand Concourse Online   content
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Thanks!
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#428104 - 06/25/08 05:03 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Grand Concourse]
Eric B Offline
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The only hope I see would be 72nd St. middle, 2nd Ave. when it opens. And then, the downtown local will not even be built until the line is extended below 63rd, so the middle will be used for throgh service. Service could just continue to 96th or 125th in the meantime, but that would still beg the question of whether they would try to squeeze the line on the local with the F and V.
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#428140 - 06/25/08 09:39 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Eric B]
shadyelstation Offline
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And even that looks like it won't be possible; revised SAS plans eliminate the third track at 72 St.

Also, why squeeze a new line down 6 Ave when you could just combine (M) with (V), thereby eliminating the squeeze?
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#428224 - 06/26/08 04:18 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: shadyelstation]
Eric B Offline
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 Originally Posted By: shadyelstation
And even that looks like it won't be possible; revised SAS plans eliminate the third track at 72 St.
Where'd you hear that at? The last plan I heard (from last year), a third track wasn't going to open until the line went below 63rd. (Phase 3) Could you have been reading about phase 1 and thought it was omitted for good?
 Quote:

Also, why squeeze a new line down 6 Ave when you could just combine (M) with (V), thereby eliminating the squeeze?
TO allow the V to go to it's logicaal terminal at Church, so the F could run express, and also to not force reduced capacity 8 car trains onto Queens Blvd.

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#428229 - 06/26/08 04:41 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Eric B]
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Eric: At Subchat, there is a link to an M.T.A. announcement that 72d Street is to be a smaller two track center island platform and the 63d Street connection has been simplified - to save money.
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#428231 - 06/26/08 04:48 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Eric B]
Grand Concourse Online   content
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The M-V combo is mainly combining 2 underused lines. The new designation should be an Orange M.
The V designation can always be recycled and used in place of say an express F so that the V could run express from 179th to 71st-Continental and express with the F [maybe running thru 53rd in place of the 3 rush hour E trains from 179th].
Finally in Brooklyn the V would run express to Church Av [directional only, local on the other direction] or rush hours extended to Kings Hgwy.

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#428240 - 06/26/08 05:37 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: Eric B]
R32_3348 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Eric B
Where'd you hear that at? The last plan I heard (from last year), a third track wasn't going to open until the line went below 63rd. (Phase 3) Could you have been reading about phase 1 and thought it was omitted for good?


Look at Pages 2-9
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#428272 - 06/26/08 09:17 PM Re: Might A (V) - (Z) Combination Be Good? [Re: R32_3348]
Eric B Offline
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Oh, Great! So screw any chance of us having a terminal for midtown service (which they weren't thinking about anyway), as well as if the Bridge ever closes again. When the T starts running, both Q and dimond Q would all have to go to 96th/125th. (and are they going to cut the third track from there too?)
All because of this budget crunch now. Once they do this, it will be final. It just causes more problems than it solvesWhat funds will this cut again. So people at the top can still get their raises?

Running alternate F's (even if you call them V) completely reduces the service at the local stops. With the current V as a separate line, (along with the G) there is much more service than alternating an existing line. They had proposed that once, and it still was shot down.

And merging the V with the M on weekdays is too much trouble. They should take whatever money they're saving by cutting this track out and extend all the platforms over here (which were all recently rebuilt), and then it would be feasible. Or connect the Chrystie tracks to the SAS. (Whenever it gets way down there; if they don;t go and cut the lower portion out altogehter, again).

If they can't even keep that track in the plan, then they're definitely not going to go through the trouble of running a foreign fleet of short trains out of Jamaica. (Can't be used on any other line out there; they're still hoping ridership on the V picks up, and if they did do it, people would commplain about the reduced capacity even if they weren't filling it's capacity. On a suggestion I recently sent in for the M-V combo on weekends only; I fixed it so that the line could run completely out of ENY. On weekdays, it would need to run out of both ends).

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