#417770 - 04/16/08 12:44 AM
Re: NYC Council Oversight Hearing on G train Servi
[Re: R-7 SEPTA Local]
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MikeGerald45
Transport Workers Union Steward
Registered: 07/23/03
Posts: 1087
Loc: Staten Island
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The G-train as designed by the IND subway system planners in the 1920's and 1930's - believed that the express tracks used by the E and F trains would be enough to handle the traffic of riders who wanted to go to Manhattan, while the G-train handled the local stations. Was this a reasonable assumption - who knows - but whatever it was cast in concrete when the IND subway system was built. In addition the IND subway was purposely made to have few connections or transfers with the existing IRT and BMT subway lines when it was first built - many of the transfer stations came about during "unification" when NYC gained title to all of the subways after they went bankrupt in the 1940's.
So no matter how many trains ran on the E and F lines - up to 30 trains per hour for both lines combined - the trains were very much over crowded. Why? The RIDERS wanted to travel to and from Manhattan where the JOBS were! While other job locations are plentiful around the city, a great deal of JOBS are located in Manhattan. Since the G-train does not travel to Manhattan it can not help with that aspect.
The help with the need for Queens Blvd riders to get to/from Manhattan, a connection with the BMT subway system using the 60th Street tunnel was created during the 1960's, first used by the RR, then the EE, the N, and now by the R-train. So while a third route now travels to Manhattan, even with the G-train running to/from Forest Hills, a great majority of riders what to get to/from Manhattan. Of course to handle the crowds, G-train service was plentiful - especially to stations in Brooklyn where the ridership was not as great as the Queens Blvd segment, they benefited from the "extra" service.
The MTA does not come into existence until 1968 - so the problems with the G-train were there before it was created. If one wants to review the politics of the Second Avenue Subway, the city's fiscal crisis, etc - and the needed use of the "tunnel to nowhere" -- please do so.
It is not until the CitiCorp building is created that the 51st Street and 53rd Street - Lexington Avenue stations have a direct connection - one that becomes over crowded.
The V-train's birth, the F-train using the 63rd Street tunnel, the truncation of the G-train were all a response to the need for riders to get to/from Manhattan, to use the capacity of the built systems, and to attempt a solution of other problems.
If one where to look at the IND subway system as built, and the various plans for the IND Second System - one would have to realize that the major fault of the IND subway system planners in the 1920's was that they really did not consider that Queen's population would grow the way that it did, and that those folks would really need several ways to get to Manhattan. While the IND Second System would have added plenty of tracks on the eastern end of Queens to many places, there was only one additional two-track tunnel planned from Queens to Manhattan. Meaning there still would have been major problems if the Great Depression had not killed all chances of the IND Second System.
Think about it - consider what was built - two tracks on the A-train to Brooklyn, two tracks on the F-train to Brooklyn by the 1940's. Then the Chyrstie Street work adding two additional tracks over the Manhattan Bridge plus connections to the J/M routes over the Williamsburg Bridge in 1968. In Queens the original two tracks for the E and F trains, plus a connection with the 60th Street tunnel - that's it. Queens was UNDER-SERVED from the start and remained so that's why the 63rd Street tunnel was planned and built - but the city's fiscal crisis hit - meaning no money.
Are G-train riders screwed by the changes over time?
Mike
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#418080 - 04/19/08 11:53 AM
Re: NYC Council Oversight Hearing on G train Servi
[Re: B13 SPRING CRK GATEWAY MALL]
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MikeGerald45
Transport Workers Union Steward
Registered: 07/23/03
Posts: 1087
Loc: Staten Island
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Its simple, has it has been well discussed on this forum, the 71st Avenue terminal can not handle the terminate - relay duties of the R-train, the V-train and the G-train all at the same time.
It has been well discussed on this forum that the Queens Plaza station can not terminate and relay G-trains at the same time that the other route operate as through services.
It has been well discussed on this forum that the MTA has set up the Queens Blvd line to allow its riders to travel directly to Manhattan, as one method to help clear its crowded stations during the peak travel times. Since fewer riders have to transfer from one crowded train to another, the local/express stations would be less crowded.
It has been well discussed on this forum that the MTA simply can not go to the corner bodega to buy subway cars, and that there is a shortage of subway cars. Many of the cars that originally were used on the G-train, are now used by the V-train for trips direct to Manhattan.
It has been well discussed on this forum that the Court Square station was the better of "not many options", but at least the original planners thought ahead enough to include the tracks and switches that they did to allow the station to be a terminal.
It has been well discussed on this forum that many G-train riders do not like the truncation of their service, that many liked the transfer options at Queens Plaza, and that many would prefer full-length G-trains and better service.
It has been well discussed on this forum that money for transit improvements does not grow on trees, and that everyone's wish list will not come true, and that no matter what is done, somebody somewhere is going to complain.
It has been well discussed on this forum that this topic has been talked to death over the years, and that some members are sick of this topic - since no matter what is said about it somebody is not going to be happy.
Such is life.
Mike
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#418129 - 04/19/08 08:24 PM
Re: NYC Council Oversight Hearing on G train Servi
[Re: MikeGerald45]
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R-7 SEPTA Local
New York State Governor
Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 8520
Loc: Hudson River Valley, NY, USA o...
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Its simple, has it has been well discussed on this forum, the 71st Avenue terminal can not handle the terminate - relay duties of the R-train, the V-train and the G-train all at the same time.
It has been well discussed on this forum that the Queens Plaza station can not terminate and relay G-trains at the same time that the other route operate as through services.
It has been well discussed on this forum that the MTA has set up the Queens Blvd line to allow its riders to travel directly to Manhattan, as one method to help clear its crowded stations during the peak travel times. Since fewer riders have to transfer from one crowded train to another, the local/express stations would be less crowded.
It has been well discussed on this forum that the MTA simply can not go to the corner bodega to buy subway cars, and that there is a shortage of subway cars. Many of the cars that originally were used on the G-train, are now used by the V-train for trips direct to Manhattan.
It has been well discussed on this forum that the Court Square station was the better of "not many options", but at least the original planners thought ahead enough to include the tracks and switches that they did to allow the station to be a terminal.
It has been well discussed on this forum that many G-train riders do not like the truncation of their service, that many liked the transfer options at Queens Plaza, and that many would prefer full-length G-trains and better service.
It has been well discussed on this forum that money for transit improvements does not grow on trees, and that everyone's wish list will not come true, and that no matter what is done, somebody somewhere is going to complain.
It has been well discussed on this forum that this topic has been talked to death over the years, and that some members are sick of this topic - since no matter what is said about it somebody is not going to be happy.
Such is life.
Mike
LMAO  As i play 'These are the breaks' by Rap Pionner Kurtis Blow for the lastest comments by Mike.
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