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#405794 - 02/04/08 11:32 PM 2 more tracks for the lex
NX Sea Beach Express NX Sea Beach Express Bus Driver Registered: 12/16/05 Posts: 497 Loc: Brooklyn	while SAS is a necessary project, and will ease some overcrowding on the lex, I think that the lex ultimately needs 2 more express tracks. now hang on a second Grand Concourse :-), the new tracks go UNDER the existing infrastructure. not only will this greatly increase capacity, and probably necessary just to meet near term demand, but service disruptions would be minimized too. while this may seem far-fetched to some, where in the rule book does it require an equal number of express and local tracks? _________________________ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A B C D E F G J L M N Q R S V W Z
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#405800 - 02/04/08 11:50 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
EE Broadway Local EE Broadway Local MTA Executive Registered: 11/28/06 Posts: 4708 Loc: Ariz. by way of N.J. & N.Y.	Welcome back. Where would your proposed stations be? _________________________ (T) (TT) (B) (D) (M) Via The West End. New Utrecht Ave. Is Cool!
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#405909 - 02/05/08 05:32 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: EE Broadway Local]
tycoonboy tycoonboy Straphanger Registered: 04/23/07 Posts: 96	The one big problem I see with this is that the Lex already runs as a two level tunnel for about half the route. Above 42nd Street, local trains run in a two track tunnel, with the express trains below them. So putting a third tunnel beneath the existing trains might be too deep, remember its a pain in the [****] to burrow through schist, and it might just not be worth it. I would go for a third set of tracks if it meant opening new service in the Bronx, like a rebuilt Third Avenue line of some sort. But thats not happening. Either way, I think it doesn't make sense to continuously pile train lines beneath existing infrastructure. Expanding capacity is a good thing, but increasing coverage area is much better plan. It would be better use of money to add additional tracks elsewhere on the East Side, not just under Lexington Avenue.
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#405927 - 02/05/08 06:56 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: tycoonboy]
Relay Relay Straphanger Registered: 01/10/08 Posts: 268 Loc: New York City	Tycoonboy has a very valid point. The east side needs another trunk line unto itself. _________________________ Photobucket:- http://s265.photobucket.com/albums/ii205/Relay-Metro
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#405953 - 02/05/08 07:54 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Relay]
RokuSix RokuSix NYC Council Transportation Committee Chairperson Registered: 07/28/07 Posts: 2454 Loc: The Bronx!	I understand your point, but an even lower Lexington track would be really deep. I'm imagining 59th Street. On the first level is the local track (6), on the second level is the BMT (N, R, W) and even lower is the Lexington Express (4 and 5). Adding a fourth level would put New Yorkers in the center of the earth. _________________________ The Pelham Express at your service. ~_^ The Bronx is up.
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#405967 - 02/05/08 08:34 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Relay]
tycoonboy tycoonboy Straphanger Registered: 04/23/07 Posts: 96	Originally Posted By: Relay Tycoonboy has a very valid point. The east side needs another trunk line unto itself. Are you thinking the SAS will suffice to add service on the East Side, or do you think that there is greater need, like another line elsewhere in addition to SAS?
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#405970 - 02/05/08 08:46 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: tycoonboy]
RokuSix RokuSix NYC Council Transportation Committee Chairperson Registered: 07/28/07 Posts: 2454 Loc: The Bronx!	If you guys don't mind my opinion, I think development patterns on the East Side should be monitored to predict the success of the SAS. _________________________ The Pelham Express at your service. ~_^ The Bronx is up.
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#405975 - 02/05/08 09:17 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: EE Broadway Local]
NX Sea Beach Express NX Sea Beach Express Bus Driver Registered: 12/16/05 Posts: 497 Loc: Brooklyn	Originally Posted By: EE Broadway Local Welcome back. Where would your proposed stations be? Thanks EE, and I am on board if you pardon the pun with SAS phase I, but the Lex is the line that serves stations where many people go, particularly Grand Central, Union Sq., Brooklyn Bridge corridor. SAS phase I would supplement the Lex local on the UES, but people are not going to trek from Grand Central to 2 Ave to go downtown just to walk back to Broadway once there. The stations would be the same as on the current express and run the entire length of the Manhattan portion of the line. Understanding the tunnel would be rather deep, I was impressed with the quality and speed of the escalators on the Prague system which was quite deep. I was out of the stations there pretty fast. _________________________ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 A B C D E F G J L M N Q R S V W Z
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#406144 - 02/06/08 03:50 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: NX Sea Beach Express]
W Broadway Local W Broadway Local "The Mole" Boring Machine Operator Registered: 07/22/04 Posts: 785 Loc: Astoria	I think the money would be better used to extend the SAS past 96th Street than to add capacity on the Eastside IRT. An extended SAS will have a positive impact on the LEx line, by giving passengers other options. Also, any construction on LEX will impact the entire LeX line. This complicates the traffic situation even more since sAS is being built in the same area. The only other idea is to add capacity on second avenue since that is the line currently being constructed. But that will involve drawing new engineer plans for the area. The money just isn't there for this idea. _________________________ W via Broadway (31st Street) Local Astoria or City Hall
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#406164 - 02/06/08 05:32 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: tycoonboy]
Relay Relay Straphanger Registered: 01/10/08 Posts: 268 Loc: New York City	Originally Posted By: tycoonboy Originally Posted By: Relay Tycoonboy has a very valid point. The east side needs another trunk line unto itself. Are you thinking the SAS will suffice to add service on the East Side, or do you think that there is greater need, like another line elsewhere in addition to SAS? Not in its present configuration. What is really needed is more funding to build a line that will continue to the Bronx via a new route. In this way people who now ride the Lexington would have an alternative one seat ride. _________________________ Photobucket:- http://s265.photobucket.com/albums/ii205/Relay-Metro
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#406359 - 02/07/08 04:57 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Relay]
A-train A-train Bus Dispatcher Registered: 04/09/06 Posts: 542 Loc: Queens	Lex line can't handle another subway line because it already too much capacity, and there's no need for another loc service when (6) is occupied by Bronx loc & exp service back to back.
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#406593 - 02/09/08 01:17 AM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Relay]
W Broadway Local W Broadway Local "The Mole" Boring Machine Operator Registered: 07/22/04 Posts: 785 Loc: Astoria	First there has to be funding for project 2 (96th Street to 125th Street) before an extension is possible. This is coupled with project 3 (72nd St. to Houston St.) and project 4 (Houston Street to Hanover Financial District) before consideration is put towards a Bronx extension. _________________________ W via Broadway (31st Street) Local Astoria or City Hall
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#406596 - 02/09/08 07:19 AM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: W Broadway Local]
Relay Relay Straphanger Registered: 01/10/08 Posts: 268 Loc: New York City	Originally Posted By: W Broadway Local First there has to be funding for project 2 (96th Street to 125th Street) before an extension is possible. This is coupled with project 3 (72nd St. to Houston St.) and project 4 (Houston Street to Hanover Financial District) before consideration is put towards a Bronx extension. Maybe my post of 02/06/08 was not clear. I'm not talking about the sequence of constructing SAS, which is what you have outlined. I was addressing Tycoonboy's question of whether or not SAS will relieve congestion on the Lexington mainline or would another line be needed elsewhere. The fact is that under the present plan SAS will do very little more than occupy time and space for a very long time. If it doesn't go to the Bronx (along a new route) and eventually to Brooklyn it will probably be the most underutilized line in all of NYCT history. The reason is, as has been discussed in another thread, NYCT is, by its very nature a radial "interborough" transportation system. The present plan for SAS is little more than a "short line". _________________________ Photobucket:- http://s265.photobucket.com/albums/ii205/Relay-Metro
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#406604 - 02/09/08 12:25 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Relay]
R32_3348 R32_3348 NYC Council Transportation Committee Chairperson Registered: 03/25/07 Posts: 2023 Loc: Jackson Heights	It will be used because people west of Second Avenue do not have to trek over to Lexington Avenue anymore (especially since it is a rather steep uphill climb, at least around the carnegie hill area). It will also provide economic development around the East Side of Manhattan. _________________________ Photobucket -R160B8713 on NYCTForums
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#406606 - 02/09/08 12:31 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: R32_3348]
RokuSix RokuSix NYC Council Transportation Committee Chairperson Registered: 07/28/07 Posts: 2454 Loc: The Bronx!	I don't think the East Side needs much more development, but that's just my opinion. I think that the Second Avenue line will allow the Lexington Line to serve its Bronx passengers better. I've seen 4,5, and 6 trains standing room only in the Bronx, so therefore, Manhattanites opting to take the Q or T trains will allow for more room on those crowded trains. If this intraborough line is a success, maybe it can pave the way for future intraborough lines. _________________________ The Pelham Express at your service. ~_^ The Bronx is up.
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#406623 - 02/09/08 03:53 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: RokuSix]
Relay Relay Straphanger Registered: 01/10/08 Posts: 268 Loc: New York City	My point exactly. The only relief it will provide is for those going uptown. It won't do anything for people on the east side who want to go to and from the Bronx. I see 4, 5 and 6 trains packed going up and down Lexington Ave to and from the Bronx. Does anyone really believe that these passengers are going to make a transfer at 125th Street to and from a Second Ave train? I think not. Figure it for yourselves, the lines(SAS)is supposed to replace (3rd and 2nd Ave els) went to the Bronx, did they not? And that is a major factor in the overcrowding on Lexington Ave. _________________________ Photobucket:- http://s265.photobucket.com/albums/ii205/Relay-Metro
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#406688 - 02/09/08 10:40 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Relay]
Lex Express Lex Express Lord of the Post Registered: 06/27/02 Posts: 16607 Loc: Springfield Gardens, Queens	Most of the 6's crowding comes from stops between 96st and 59st. It's actually a very pleasant line once it reaches the Bronx. The SAS will relieve the 6 along Lexington Avenue. _________________________ "This stop is Silver Spring. Red Line to Glenmont. Next stop is Forest Glen".
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#406718 - 02/10/08 07:42 AM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Lex Express]
Relay Relay Straphanger Registered: 01/10/08 Posts: 268 Loc: New York City	I see diamond 6's come through Parkchester crowded everyday. I occasionally take a circle 6 down the road in passenger service, and I can assure any and everyone that long before it gets to 96 street it is crowded. So I would disagree with your assessment. True, there are a lot of people waiting for the 6 between 96th and 59th streets. But they aren't creating the crowding, they are adding to the already crowded train. And I'm not saying that SAS will not adress that need. Because it will, but only to a limited degree. What I have said, and am still saying is that it will do nothing for the Bronx riders, which is where the Lexington mainline needs help. My point is that people travelling between the Bronx and say 86 street and First ave, will still take the M86 to the Lexington Ave line even after SAS is extended to 125th street with a free transfer to the Lex. And that will probably remain true for most east siders who travel between there and the Bronx. It (SAS) will not address the crowding to and from the Bronx, and it will only address part of the crowding on the upper east side. We can agree to disagree on that. Still in my opinion, the entire SAS project was not well planned out, because there is no plan to take it to the Bronx within the foreseeable future, and it won't even be three tracked to allow for expansion and/or breakdowns. But to get back to the original topic, Lexington Ave does not need additional trackage. What the east side needs is a line that will properly relieve the crowding on the Lexington Ave line, and not just the upper east side. _________________________ Photobucket:- http://s265.photobucket.com/albums/ii205/Relay-Metro
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#406816 - 02/10/08 09:53 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Relay]
Grand Concourse Grand Concourse Lord of the Post Registered: 06/26/02 Posts: 18061 Loc: Manhattan	I assume that if there are no immediate plans of sending the SAS to the Bronx especially 3rd Av.. Is it possible to connect the SAS to the Concourse line? It would at least give the SAS a connection to the Bronx plus it could help the 4 line by offering riders there another option heading downtown. Edited by Grand Concourse (02/10/08 09:54 PM)
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#406872 - 02/11/08 02:11 AM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Grand Concourse]
Alon Alon Subway Engineer Registered: 08/25/07 Posts: 2798 Loc: Morningside Heights	The Upper East Side's mean population center lies almost exactly on Second Avenue, so SAS could serve a larger commuter population than the Lex lines. In addition, it will reach Times Square and Herald Square, which must be busier commuter destination than Grand Central.
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#407044 - 02/11/08 11:24 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Grand Concourse]
tycoonboy tycoonboy Straphanger Registered: 04/23/07 Posts: 96	Originally Posted By: Grand Concourse I assume that if there are no immediate plans of sending the SAS to the Bronx especially 3rd Av.. Is it possible to connect the SAS to the Concourse line? It would at least give the SAS a connection to the Bronx plus it could help the 4 line by offering riders there another option heading downtown. Connecting the Concourse Line with the SAS would be an interesting option, as it would increase the amount of access to different subway lines in Manhattan for Bronx passengers. The easiest way to do that would be to dig the SAS over to 8th Ave. and 125th St. and connect it into the 8th Avenue line and have it follow the B/D route into the Bronx (with this we can also have SAS trains serve Washington Heights). The other alternative would be to build a tunnel under to run Grand Concourse (so under the 4 between 138th and 153rd Streets) and then connect into the B/D around Yankees Stadium. To do that, it might be necessary to tunnel beneath Lexington Ave, or to build a spur off from 2nd Ave going further north. Doing the Grand Concourse tunnel is more direct than running the train over to 8th avenue, but a much longer tunnel than connecting in at 8th and 125th. Either way, bringing the SAS to the Bronx is awesome, but I think it would be better for SAS to become the Third Avenue line in The Bronx.
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#407249 - 02/12/08 09:24 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: tycoonboy]
sebbieprops sebbieprops Subway Duke Registered: 06/15/07 Posts: 7656 Loc: Morrisania, Bronx NY	Originally Posted By: tycoonboy Either way, bringing the SAS to the Bronx is awesome, but I think it would be better for SAS to become the Third Avenue line in The Bronx. Agreed. I'd have it run directly north, stopping at the following: -125th St. -3rd Ave/138th St; transfer Bx1/2/21/32/33 -3rd Ave/149th St; transfer Bx2/15/21/41/55 -3rd Ave/156th St; transfer Bx15/21/55 -3rd Ave/163rd St; transfer Bx6/15/21/55 -3rd Ave/168th St; transfer Bx15/35/55 -3rd Ave/Claremont Pkwy; transfer Bx11/15/55 -3rd Ave/Tremont Ave; transer Bx15/40/42/55 -3rd Ave/183rd St; transfer Bx15/55 -3rd Ave/Fordham Road; transfer Bx9/12/15/17/22/41/55/Metro-North -Gun Hill Road; transfer Bx28/30/39/41/55/(2)/(5) _________________________ I do the Diamond. Literally.
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#407370 - 02/13/08 06:00 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: sebbieprops]
Relay Relay Straphanger Registered: 01/10/08 Posts: 268 Loc: New York City	Sebbie, Would you and Tycoonboy consider heading up the NYCT Capital Improvement Program? _________________________ Photobucket:- http://s265.photobucket.com/albums/ii205/Relay-Metro
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#407436 - 02/13/08 09:50 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Relay]
Alon Alon Subway Engineer Registered: 08/25/07 Posts: 2798 Loc: Morningside Heights	More importantly, would the government realize that if Beijing can commit $5.5 billion a year to digging new subway lines, so can New York?
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#407451 - 02/13/08 10:18 PM Re: 2 more tracks for the lex [Re: Alon]
R-7 SEPTA Local R-7 SEPTA Local Gene Russianoff Registered: 10/13/04 Posts: 9784 Loc: Hudson River Valley, NY, USA o...	Alon you also aware that the Chiense are among the most taxed in the world too? Not to mention they live in a 'progressive' but communist country?
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