#26116 - 06/15/04 10:52 AM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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This is the train to...
Lord of the Post
Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 10357
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What Jamaica avenue express tracks? Take a gander at a track map.
There are only real express tracks from Junction to the bridge.
Most of the Jamaica and Fulton el is 2 tracks, with a 3rd track thrown in for layups. Express on the local operations would cause bunching, and wouldn't really save any more time than is being saved by the current skip-stop service. Add in the Crescent curve, and realize the hopeless situation.
There's no real point in skipping Marcy avenue, because the trains merge anyway at that point to get on the bridge. If that mixed R-40m/42 consist has taught us anything it's that you can't go 40 MPH onto the Williamsburg bridge. Trains have to slow down anyway.
The 1 local train you have from Essex to Myrtle is going to be taxed! All the more reason to make Marcy an express station. That way the poor local train is helped out somewhat.
3.) That should have been done when they added elevators to the 4 5 6 station, but priorities are priorities...
4.) That's going to happen. If it will attract ridership, we shall see. These trains aren't any faster, so commute times won't improve, but perhaps the lure of a modern subway car is enough.
BTW: The R-143's did not lure people to the L line. Cheaper rents (comparable to Manhattan) lured people to live in the neighborhoods near the L line.
Basically:
- Unless you are going to widen Jamaica avenue, the only express service you are going to see is from Junction to Essex.
- Marcy avenue should be an express stop. 1 train 7 minutes apart minimum (Max of 21-27 TPH on the Williamsburg bridge, 27 is unrealistically pushing it, split that 3 ways and each line is running roughly every 7-8 mins) is too little service for Essex-Myrtle.
- I don't ever think the J train will be a attractive option for people out of Queens to Manhattan simply because you have to transfer to get to Midtown Manhattan (It's where everyone is going these days. Why do you think they redirected the tracks on the Manhattan bridge to 6th avenue?).
- R-160's are going to happen. They will improve the riding environment, but will they make the ride any faster?
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#26117 - 06/15/04 12:36 PM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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Lex Express
Lord of the Post
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 17080
Loc: Springfield Gardens, Queens
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Originally posted by Photo Jeebus:
What Jamaica avenue express tracks? Take a gander at a track map.
Trains have to slow down anyway
The 1 local train you have from Essex to Myrtle is going to be taxed!
I don't ever think the J will be a attractive option for people out of Queens to Manhattan...
_________________________
"This stop is Silver Spring. Red Line to Glenmont. Next stop is Forest Glen".
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#26118 - 06/15/04 02:08 PM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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Fulton Street El
Bus Driver
Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 477
Loc: Long Island
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Originally posted by Marvelous M7:
The Z will be a peak express like the <7>. It would use the Jamaica Avenue and Broadway express tracks. It will stop at Jamaica Center,Sutphin,Crescent and all stops to Broadway Junction followed by Myrtle,Essex
Unfortunately, although the Jamaica Ave has provision for a third express track, it does not exist. There was talk some years ago of installing it, however, there was lots of community opposition in Woodhaven and along the El (which would not at all benefit from it), so the idea was scrapped.
(It'll bypass Marcy. I'll explain later), and all stops to Broad Street.
2) The M will also run express (peak direction) from Myrtle to Essex.
The J/Z travel the furthest, so the M makes the most logical local.
That's the current plan so far.
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#26120 - 06/15/04 03:21 PM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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This is the train to...
Lord of the Post
Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 10357
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Originally posted by Marvelous M7: Originally posted by Photo Jeebus:
What Jamaica avenue express tracks? Take a gander at a track map.
Trains have to slow down anyway
The 1 local train you have from Essex to Myrtle is going to be taxed!
I don't ever think the J will be a attractive option for people out of Queens to Manhattan...
B. I could care less about how fast an express train travels, the point is Marcy avenue merits stops by all trains. All the other stops between Essex and Myrtle get by with the M serving them alone, but add Marcy and you've overloaded the local train. How can people squeeze into an express train if their stop is a local stop?
C. The MTA gave up on the Nassau line in 1967 when it switched the north side of the Manhattan bridge to 6th avenue, and the South side to Broadway. Also by building the 63rd street connector, they eliminated the possibility of the Nassau train terminating in Midtown Manhattan. They are also in the process of giving up on it by realigning it to be a 2 track line. I think Nassau's viability is pretty much shot. It does what it does now, and it's in the process of becomming a line that will do no more then it does now.
There are better avenues (no pun intended) towards giving the people of eastern Queens better options to Manhattan. The cost of redesigning an archaic line like the J into a line capable of handling the demands of Queens blvd is nonsensical. The money is better spent elsewhere.
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#26123 - 06/15/04 09:05 PM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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Lex Express
Lord of the Post
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 17080
Loc: Springfield Gardens, Queens
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Originally posted by Fulton Street El:
It would be extremely foolish ti make the almost busiest station on the line a local station
The J/Z travel the furthest, so the M makes the most logical local
Originally posted by Photo Jeebus:
The cost of redesigning an archaic line like the J into a line capable of handling the demands of Queens blvd is nonsensical
_________________________
"This stop is Silver Spring. Red Line to Glenmont. Next stop is Forest Glen".
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#26124 - 06/15/04 10:20 PM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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Fulton Street El
Bus Driver
Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 477
Loc: Long Island
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Originally posted by Photo Jeebus:
Also by building the 63rd street connector, they eliminated the possibility of the Nassau train terminating in Midtown Manhattan.
They are also in the process of giving up on it by realigning it to be a 2 track line. I think Nassau's viability is pretty much shot.
Not really. The only thing the center tracks at Canal and Bowery allowed for was an extra terminal. They did not go through to Chambers anyway. They were not meant to be "express" tracks. They had some short turn trains there that used to terminate there many years ago. Personally, I think it is not a good practice to cut Nassau riders off from the transfers at Chambers St and Fulton anyway, so it's bad if trains terminate at Canal, so it's good it's no longer possible. It was a disaster when in the 90's they at first terminated the weekend J at Canal. By abandoning Canal's and Bowery's extra platforms they are not "giving up" on the Nassau line, they are actually making it a more pleasant line to use. The Nassau line's capacity was overbuilt to begin with. It was built for service that never came. Abandoned platforms, tracks, and area = eyesore. So by consolidating, they will be able to have only necessary infastructure in plain sight of passengers, and it will be much easier to maintain.
Next, the only reason Chambers Street is so large is because it WAS the terminal of the line. It's built as a terminal, not a through station. Even the LIRR ran into Chambers St at the beginning. Once the line was extended through to Fulton and Broad, Chambers' capacity was not needed as a terminal with all those tracks and platforms, so we are left with a huge (and largely unused) station. The only reason for that though is because Chambers was designed as a terminal, which it isn't anymore as a through station.
I could care less about how fast an express train travels, the point is Marcy avenue merits stops by all trains. All the other stops between Essex and Myrtle get by with the M serving them alone, but add Marcy and you've overloaded the local train. How can people squeeze into an express train if their stop is a local stop
The MTA gave up on the Nassau line in 1967 when it switched the north side of the Manhattan bridge to 6th avenue, and the South side to Broadway.
originally posted by Marvelous M7
If an empty J local stopped there, that wouldn't be a problem.
I'm trying to get the most out of the J. I refuse to just let it decay.
I totally agree though, it's almost tragic that the center express track was never installed over Jamaica Ave, like most all the other els had gotten.
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#26125 - 06/16/04 12:37 PM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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Lex Express
Lord of the Post
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 17080
Loc: Springfield Gardens, Queens
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Originally posted by Fulton Street El:
You definitely don't want to have the local handle Marcy alone, a station that had just under 2,000,000 annual fares paid.
_________________________
"This stop is Silver Spring. Red Line to Glenmont. Next stop is Forest Glen".
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#26126 - 06/16/04 12:47 PM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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This is the train to...
Lord of the Post
Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 10357
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Yes you can please everyone. Make Marcy avenue a express stop.
I don't see who is pleased by trains skipping Marcy. There's a 5MPH timer into Marcy at that station anyway. Trains are going to stop on the express track to approach it.
These so called "delays" you speak of are going to happen anyway. The lines merge to enter the bridge.
The J is not going to be empty, how else are people going to get to Hewes, Loimer, Flushing, Kozciusko (  ), Gates, Halsey, and Chauncey?
If I'm at Essex and the J is pulling in and I'm going to Chauncey, I'm not going to let that J pass to get on a Z, only to get back on the same J at Myrtle. If the Z is 2 minutes behind the J and you save 2 minutes by taking the Z over the J, what's the point? I think I'll take the J... with everyone else from those local stops, plus Marcy, Hewes, Loimer, and Flushing.
The local train is never going to be empty if people have to play this musical chairs game to get to their stop.
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#26128 - 06/16/04 01:26 PM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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Fulton Street El
Bus Driver
Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 477
Loc: Long Island
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Originally posted by Marvelous M7:
1) The J/Z express can only reach its top speed for a minute before it slows down around Hewes. Swithching back to the local track is annoying.
2) The J local will be empty. Case in point: How many people ride the V train?
The J will NOT be empty. First of all, most people are not going to give up their seats and get off at Myrtle-Bway for the M just to skip a few stations. In addition, you are making the switching at Myrtle-Bway much more complicated too, as instead of the M being able to quietly turn onto Bway on the local track like it does now, totally avoiding the express track, you are making the Manhattan bound M cross in front of the J's on it's turn from myrtle onto broadway. This will also slow things down further than they are now at Myrtle-Bway because you are taking two trains that now don't need to cross paths, and now making them have to cross in front of each other. Similarly, the people going home from the Manhattan stations are not going to pass up a J to take an M, just to get off at Myrtle-Bway to get the J again.
And then you have all the local station's ridership. Flushing Ave is the next busiest station on the J with over a million and a half fares. Add that to the not too shabby other local stations at Gates, Kosciuszko, and Halsey, all with 1 to 1.5 million fares each. Then the add that to all the other stations on Broadway, and then east of Bway Junction, and your trains won't be any more empty than the J is today. Also add to that that the J will be stopping at more stations than it does now along it's entire route, because it is no longer sharing it's load with the Z (The Z only stopping at a few random stations running express). And that's not even including the fact that after Myrtle-Bway the J will have the passengers from Hewes, Lorimer, and Flushing (the next busiest station after Marcy), and you will have a packed train by Marcy, if only the locals can pick up Marcy's 2 million fares.
There is no way Marcy Ave can go back to a local station. And the "annoying" switching you talk about will slow the train down anyway because the three tracks still have to go to two tracks to get over the Williamsburg Bridge. The only diffrence will be that the express trains will be sitting stopped and waiting on the express tracks at Marcy waiting to merge, instead of stopping IN the Marcy station, picking passengers up at the same time, waiting to merge.
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#26131 - 06/16/04 03:03 PM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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Fulton Street El
Bus Driver
Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 477
Loc: Long Island
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Originally posted by Marvelous M7: Originally posted by Fulton Street El:
The J will NOT be empty
Yes, trains are supposed to be packed, but what you are trying to do will give the expresses and locals an uneven spreading with fairly empty expresses, with jam-packed locals. It's better when it's evened out.
I know the intentions are good, but here are the major flaws:
1. Even forgetting the fact that Marcy is one of the most major passenger load stations on the line, Marcy just has to be an express station. Whether the expresses merge before or after Marcy from three to two tracks is irrelevant because either way, there will be a bottleneck there, and trains will have to slow down. The way it is now, the express has to slow down to merge with the local. The same thing would be necessary if the expresses tried to skip Marcy. The only difference would be the expresses would continuously be stopped on the express track in the Marcy station waiting to get through the switches to the Bridge. The difference now is that even though the trains have to slow at Marcy, they at least can take some of the passenger load from the station if it's stopped anyway. Unfortunately, this won't speed the express up.
2. You are making both the J/Z and the M slow down at Myrtle-Broadway by making the M express instead of the J. Currently, although some trains still have to cross in front of each other at Myrtle-Bway, by making the J local and the M express, you are adding one extra crossing into the mix, thus slowing it from the way it is now. With the M express, and the J local, Manhattan bound M trains will have to cross in front of Manhattan bound J's, and then also have to merge with the Z on the express track! That's three trains that must not get in eachother's way, while now all three of those lines (in that direction) can just freely pull into Myrtle-Bway without getting in eachothers way.
Other than that, I like the idea of the full express on Jamaica Ave, and bypassing the Fulton St section of the J with an express. Unfortunately, that is the only thing that would increase ridership on the line. That or adding a 6th Ave line to the Broadway El (whether it to Metro Ave or Jamaica) are the only things that would increase ridership on that line.
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#26132 - 06/16/04 04:27 PM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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N6 Limited
Transportation Alternatives Organizer
Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 1526
Loc: Town of Hempstead, Nassau Coun...
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Originally posted by matt1168:
Does anybody actually ride the J/Z from Sutphin/Parsons/Archer?
It seems like everybody is always getting on the E at those stations and leaving the J/Z trains empty going out.
_________________________
"If the bus has standing room only, please move toward the rear to allow others to board"
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#26137 - 06/20/04 01:27 AM
Re: Ideas to improve the J/M/Z
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vengence
TWU President
Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 3151
Loc: new york
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In another thread,I POINTED out that the MTA HAS INTENTIONALLY isolated the Eastern Division subway.
They have treated the BMT EAST like a bad taste in it's mouth for years.The only GOOD thing they've done was place new cars on the L line,and they did that because they want to use the riders as guinea pigs for CBTC.
They refurbished the stations ,because they HAD TOO,otherwise they would have fallen into the streets.
The only thing that will save the JMZ service is a route change/ajustment. PLAINLY speaking,it doesnt go where MOST riders WANT to go. Send it to Midtown/Upper Manhattan ,or Queens.
Nassau street service should be turn into a shuttle overnight and weekends from Essex st to Broad,and main line service sent through the BJ tracks to the Houston st subway at all times.
Express service should be improved with longer rush hour service along skip stop portions,along with express service between ENY and Myrtle av.
Run short line trains[6-8 tph] between ENY and 9th ave[rush hours to Bay Pky].This way the Broadway Bklyn,And the 4th ave line will have addtional local service.
There are many way to improve Eastern Division service.What I did was out line a FEW of them...The point is,if you want to attract riders to your subways,you have to make it attractive to ride.....
The MTA's bare bones service plan has given us bare bones results..which means they are doggin this line into a hole it will never crawl out of if something isn't done to turn it around.
By giving riders a choice,you will see service improve.Less croweding in the A/C and L lines..Hopefully,sometime in the future,they will se this and every one will be happier,especially the E.D. riders...
_________________________
The Greatest Subway Line EVER.....
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