DC I replied to your message

Mta36: Due to the fact that BX18 has about 2 runs per hour when it comes, its SRO'd when it comes. Theres usually a long line for the bus @ the 170 St stops and it remains crowded up Macombs to University then more people get on from the Bx3 and Bx36. I have seen this happen at 1 pm all the up to the last run W/B.

If you dont mind Kingsbridge i share the PM message you sent to me. It not really that classfieled like a James Bond mission lol.

KingsbridgeBX9 quaote on B31 Q76 and City Island service.

"I've never been to Gerritsean Beach in my life but I thought you were saying all service was to be cut. Late nights service cuts would make sense. City Island shouldn't have late night service, if anything the BX29 should stop running around 10 pm.

With the Q76 weekday service is fine as long as it ends around 8-9. I don't even think I've seen a Q76 anywhere near SRO in my life. The Queens 70-routes are for the most part expendable."

Funny how that works out, don't it.....




B31 should not have buses running well into midnight... Those riders (especially) aren't thinking of hopping on no train during that hour... hell, they aren't even on the BUS during that hour....



That hurts co-op city riders more than it helps...

Country club residents don't want a plethora of buses in their quote-unquote precious/serene neighborhood... Co-op city residents NEED reliable service to & from the 6 train @ PBP... If you combine those 2 routes, you run the risk of pissing off country club residents w/ too many buses in their neighborhood, or you wouldn't make co-op city riders any happier, w/ the current substandard service of the Qbx1 & the Bx29 that they have to put up with, in getting to the subway station (PBP)....

Personally, I'd kill off the Bx14, thus eliminating service in that damn area (Cntry. club)... and send the Bx4 through the heart of parkchester, instead of running under the el there (the 6 line)... b/c the Bx4 being on the chopping block b/c it parallels subway lines for the majority of its route, is just plain crazy...

You're not missing anything, bro....

IMO, City Island is far more "live" than Gerritsen Beach is...
Plum Beach not too far from there is a dumping ground... From what I experienced, City Island residents WANT people to venture to all their seafood restaurants; kinda sorta resembles some towns out on Long Island... Now Gerritsen beach, those are the most bigoted people out.. They don't want you in their secluded area at all... I equate that area to Breezy Point (plus all the bus service Gerritsen DON'T deserve!)... There is nothing out there to want to venture to....

back on topic...
I don't think the B31 should entirely be cut, just those extra late night runs nam' near nobody is on..... If the Bx29 served all parts of Co-op City, with added service, it'd really catch on out there in co-op... can't really extend the B31 westbound anywhere that would make too much of a difference....

that's my take on the two areas/routes....

That's because no resident has requested for such plan. The only way I can see direct bus service to Pathmark is extending the M14A. If the M14A ever terminates there, I'll move the M14A's north terminal to Union Square.

Many are express buses going to the Bronx. They get ridership during rush hours, but are pretty empty other times. Good point on the local routes however.

Off topic. B-35 makes great points. Not trying to start a flame war or sound sterotype but contray to popular belief the only area of Brooklyn that is still unfriendly to 'people of color"(ie Blacks & Hispanics)is Gerttitean Beach. Bensonhurst in a surprise over last 20 years has seen an expolosion in Asians & Eastern Europeans(mainly Russian-Americans) and have even overtaken it as a long time Italian stronghold.

It still makes no sense to cut buses when ridership is up on buses. They need to invest more in BRT and viable bus service. If it is enhanced as the SBS in the bronx overall in specific corridors it will help alleviate some of the congestion on some of the lines. I.e. a SBS route on Queens BLVD. to alleviate some of the ridership from the E & F trains.

Both the Q76 and Q77 get crowded during school hours. Lots of Catholic school students use the Q76. The Q77 passes various junior high schools and high schools.

They're in the other "Doomsday" thread. I can comment only on mostly the Queens cuts

I agree 100% that the MTA and New York state should increasing service at or near record ridership in our metro area and across the USA. However thanks to the fools and idiots at Wall St, Washington, DC and other places this nightmare ecomony will take at least several years to recovery and any expensive related to government funding from Mass Transit to Infrastructure improvements for our nation will be either cut or delayed for a while sadly.

I agree. Washington, DC folks and Albany should drive and park at subway or bus stop and take ride on round trip on busiest bus and subway.

Here are the MtA bus cuts excerpts from http://www.mta.info/mta/budget/nov2008/nov2008_vol1part2.pdf

BUS SERVICE - SAVINGS $53.9 MILLION 2009, $103.3 MILLION ANNUALLY 2010-2012, POSITION REDUCTIONS 922 FOR 2009, 953 FOR 2010-2012

Cancel X23/X24 Takeover
...This proposal requires that NEw York City maintain its financial responsibility for X23/X24 service

Increase Express Bus Fare to Improve Cost Recovery
(increased from $5 to $7.50) This pproposal improves express bus farebox recovery to approach the level achieved by local buses. Over time it is anticiapted that express bus service would be reduced to meet lower demand, with some partially offsetting service increases on adjacent local bus services.

On weekdays, service would be reduced on all express bus routes based on projected ridership declines. In addition, the X25 and X32 would be eliminated because the projected ridership would not be enough to operate a single express bus trip. On weekends, service would be reduced on the X1 and X10 based on projected ridership declines.

Eliminate Low Performing Weekend Express Bus Service
This proposal eliminates X27 and X28 weekend express bus service between southern Brooklyn and Manhattan, which are very lightly used. Both routes operate near subway services; customers can walk or take local buses to reach the subway as an alternative.

Discontinue Overnight Service on Low Performing Routes
Ridership on all overnight local bus service was analyzed using MetroCard data. A guideline-based threshold of 15-20 passengers per hour was applied for the overnight period; routes that did not meet this ridership threshold for at least three consecutive hours during each day of service were initially identified for overnight eliminiation. Because of the high availability of alternatives in Manhattan, additional Manhattan routes were identified for overnight elimination.

Overnight service would be eliminated on 25 routes:
* B7, B14,

(...oops.. accidentally pressed OK before finishing...)

(Overnight service eliminated:)
* B7, B14, B31, B45, B48, B57, B64, B65, B67, AND B77

[God, I swear I am using the keyboard and not the mouse in typing this before hitting Submit... hope this doesn't happen again!)

*Bx10 in the Bronx
*M1, M2, M16, M22, M23, M42, M50, M66, M79, M96, M102, M103 and M104 in Manhattan
*Q30 in Queens

Overnight service would continue to operate on 71 routes as well as the entire subway system.

Discontinue Bus to Baretto Park Pool & SIR Baseball Special
This proposal eliminates two seasonal special services with low ridership. In the Bronx, NYCT inaugurated shuttle service in the summer of 2008 between the subway and the pool at Barretto Point Park. In Staten Island, the Staten Island Railway operates a special train to the Stadium station at the Richmond County Ballpark on game days only.

Reduce Service Span on Low Performing Routes
Ridership during the first two and last two hours of service for all local bus routes that do not operate 24 hours was analyzed and compared to system averages. Routes falling below two-thirds of the system average in terms of passengers per trip during the beginning or end of service were identified for span reductions. Because these reductions eliminate just a handful of tirps at either end of the service span of a route (while the majority of service on affected routes is retained), the customer impact is low.

The proposed span reductions are as follows:

* Weekday morning service would begin later on the B16, B69, B70, B71, Bx33, M11, M20, M21, S57, and S66
* Weekday evening service would end earlier on the B2, B4, B9, B11, B13, B16, B69, M21, Q42, Q79, S54, and S60
* On Saturdays, service would begin later ont he M20, M100, and M116, while service would end earlier on the B9 and M20
* On Sundays, service would begin later on the M20 and end earlier on the B9 and Q48

Restructure Local Bus Routes to Eliminate Underutilized or Duplicative Segments
This proposal includes both route truncation and route restructuring. Two Manhattan routes that significantly overlap other bus services are proposed for truncation; the M104 would be shortened seven days a week while the M1 would be shortened on weekends only. In addition, to reduce duplication and to shorten travel times, the restructuring of numerous routes in the Lower East Side area of Manhattan (affecting the M9, M15, M20, and M21) and the Co-op City area of the Bronx (affecting the Bx26, Bx28, and Bx30) is proposed.

Discontinue Weekend Service on Low Performing Routes
This proposal would eliminate weekend service on local bus routes with low ridership and farebox recovery. Initially, routes wiht less than 2/3 of the system average ridership and farebox recovery on weekends were identified for weekend elimination. Additional routes were identified based on ridership trends and service duplication.

37 local bus routes are proposed for weekend elimination:
* B2, B4, B7, B16, B23, B24, B37, B39, B48, B57, B65, B69, B71, and B75 in Brooklyn
* Bx8 (Sunday only), Bx14, Bx18, Bx20, Bx33, and Bx34 in the Bronx
* M6, M8, M18, M21, M22, M27, and M50 in Manhattan
* Q14, Q31, Q76, Q79, and Q84 in Queens
* S42, S54, S57, S60, and S76 in Staten Island

Eliminate or Restructure Local Bus Routes that Duplicate the Subway
The local bus network was analyzed for duplication with the subway network. Initial candidate routes had more than 50% of their length within 0.2 miles of a subway line; ridership and alternative services were then analyzed. This proposal would eliminiate weekend service on four routes that operate above, below, or adjacent to one or more subway lines for their entire length (the B25, Bx4, M10, and Q56). Although these routes do carry significant numbers of customers, the subway provides direct alternative service. In addition, segments of the B13 and the Q24 that are underutilized and that duplicate the subway are also proposed for elimination.

Discontinue Low Performing Local Routes with Alternatives Availabile
Initially, local bus routes were identified for weekday elimination based on ridership, farebox recovery, and service duplication. Routes with less than 2/3 of the system average weekday ridership and farebox recovery and routes that primarily duplicate other bus or subway services were considered for weekday elimination. These routes were then analyzed based on the availability of practical alternatives (such as the availablity of a parallel bus route within 1/2 mile). The routes proposed for weekday elimination have practical bus and/or subway alternatives for customers along the entire length of the route. While customers may experience additional walking or waiting time and may need to make an additional transfer, they will still be able to complete theur trips.

The routes proposed for weekday elimination are:
* B23, B25, B37, B39, B51, and B75 in Brooklyn
* Bx4, Bx14, Bx20, and Bx34 in The Bronx
* M6, M8, M10, M18, M27, and M30 in Manhattan
* Q26, Q56, Q74, Q75 and Q84 in Queens

Maintenance and Cleaning Headcount
(reduces bus cleaning and maintenance)

------

But wait, there's more. MTA Bus also has significant changes, so I'll come back with those in a moment.

MTA Bus Budget Recommendations:

1. Realign Peak Period Express Bus Service to MTA-NYCT Loading Guidelines
$6.7 million, 61 Positions

Currently, MTA Bus does not use loading guidelines, However, with the evolution of the MTA BUs organization and the accurate reporting of necessary ridership data on an on-going basis, the application of loading guidelines identical to that employed by NYCT's Operations Planning Division can now be achieved. Routes affected by this change include: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM4, BM5, BxM1, BxM2, BxM3, BxM4A/4B, BxM6, BxM7, BxM7A, BxM9, BxM10, BxM11, BxM18, QM1/1A, Qm2, QM2A, QM$, QM10, QM11, QM12, QM21, QM24

2. Discontinue Underused Express and Local Bus Routes
$2.0 million, 29 positions

Several bus routes perform well below the system wide average. This reduction is based on eliminating the least-utilized routes within the system. Specifically, the QM22, QM23, BxM7B routes have been identified.

3. Utilized NYCT-Department of Buses Facilities for Mid-day layovers
$0.8 million, 2 positions

MTA BUs can save fuel and maintenance costs associated with mileage that can be eliminated by introducing mid-day layovers at DOB's Michael J. Quill, 100th Street and 126th Street Depots. This reduction represents those savings.

4. Streamline Select Routes
$0.8 million, 0 positions

Several routes have minor variations from their primary path which can be revised to more efficiently serve their respective communities. Specifically, the Q18, Q38, Q41, Q67, Q110, B103, BM2, BM3, QM21, BxM1 and BxM2 routes have been identified for these improvements

5. Increase Express Bus Fare to $7.50
$8.3 million, 116 positions

-----

That's a lot of typing. I'll point out the most interesting things that haven't been discussed yet:

1. Special SIR Ballpark and Barretto Park Pool service discontinued
2. Overnight service of less than 15-20 ppl. per hour discontinued
3. Restructuring of Lower East Side and CoOp city routes
4. M104 and M1 shortening
5. Parts of B13 and Q24 duplicating subway service discontinued
6. Various MTA Bus routes restructured

Since the media didn't report it, I'm most upset with nos. 3, 4, and 5 above. And if the B13 is cut (west of Myrtle/Wyckoff I presume), I'll be furious. My mother is now elderly and has trouble walking around. The L is close by, but with her condition, it's going to be really painful for her. This also says that the B18 (the predecessor to the B13) was unsuccessful, which I don't agree with.

I really wish the MTA had presented this information in a better format. Their web pages suck compared to other systems, but I think even that as opposed to a PDF in a budget document is a vast improvement for customers. I remember when Chicago had its doomsday warning last year, and I was impressed with how they presented everything: the subway or bus cuts, explanation, and alternate service. That doesn't mean I approve of the Chicago TA cuts, it's just they were more persuasive and explained better in my opinion.

You'd think the MTA would do an equal or better job announcing these cuts since it's a much bigger system. Instead, we have to hear from the media, who take only some of the things, leaving others to find out the rest of the details in such a non-friendly way. I hope these service cuts are detailed on web pages when it comes to the public hearing stage. It's not too late, MTA.

I'd love to have a job with the MTA redesigning their website, if only their attitude about customers would change.

I will admit that outside of the X1, BxM7, and QM1A no express route needs to run on weekends, but these cuts are draconian. Many people will be stranded in the middle of the night. I'm not even going to get into the X32 fiasco. The MTA sucks.

As the saying goes, If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

This was broken, but they shouldn't have "fixed" it.

I actually read all of that info..... Some of these cuts are justified, however, a lot of them are not.... It's plain as day that the MTA is trying to maximize the number of passengers on any given route, per RUN (in plain english, you will wait longer for a semi-crowded, to crowded bus; depending on the route)... and getting rid of routes that wont drastically increase ridership even if headways are INcreased...

BUT, this idea of getting rid of above average ridership routes that may parallel subway routes, I don't know about... less buses along fulton st (B25), westchester av (Bx4), Jamaica av {under the el} (Q56), and hell, even along CPW (M10) - which has the LEAST amt. of traffic of all the major north-south streets in Manhattan, will not ease congestion at all.... also, this idea of trying to get riders to sardine their way to an already crowded subway train, is just nuts... This is not about what %-tage of subway lines are at or near capacity; I'm speaking here for the avg. rider - and we don't care about that number... We care about getting from point A to point B in a timely, safe, and comfortable manner, which of course, a big agency (like the MTA) cares very little about...

I didn't know MTA bus doesn't consider passenger loads per trip... if that's the case, in the future, a good number of those Bronx express routes will cease to run on the weekends, lemme tell ya... Having buses from other depots taking up space at/around other depots is going to create HAVOC; not sure what they're thinking there.... Streamlining certain routes, compared to all the cuts that are being made is either here nor there to me....


The express bus mentions... wow, to jump from $5.00 to $7.50 is absolutely nuts.. I remember some time ago when LL (liberty lines) used to run certain exp routes.. those bad boys were packed... Not to say that ppl. stopped riding those same routes since MTA bus took over, but since the fare was increased to 5.00 (from 4.00), express bus ridership in general took quite a dive... Wait til they depict what a whole 2-and-a-half dollar increase will accomplish...

as for this segment:

1. Special SIR Ballpark and Barretto Park Pool service discontinued
2. Overnight service of less than 15-20 ppl. per hour discontinued
3. Restructuring of Lower East Side and CoOp city routes
4. M104 and M1 shortening
5. Parts of B13 and Q24 duplicating subway service discontinued
6. Various MTA Bus routes restructured


1. I don't know enough about this... but I will say is, if those services are gone, then those special x80/81 trips to Randall's Island better get the axe also.... only specials that should stay around are the Jones beach runs; and I read around that they're trying to get rid of them.. hmpf...

2. Fully agree with the MTA on this... 15-20 people in an hour, for a full bus route (whose runtimes are on average, are about that same hour) isn't that many people... I actually think they're being considerate here; that number could have been much higher...

3) Depends on the actual restructures.....
I have a theory as to what they want to do w/ routes that travel to/around the LES (most of which has already been discussed in these "doomsday" threads, and in other bus route enhancement threads in the past... As far as what they play on doing to those routes out in Co-op City, I don't have a clue... Don't tell me they're gonna segment runs; what I mean is, have one route serve 1/2 of co-op, another route serve the other half, and one route serve all of co-op..... that's just a guess (I hope does NOT actually happen)...

4) I could care less about the M104; that route has always underachieved, the way I see it.... I'm surprised that isn't on the chopping block... The M1 however, shortening that route to where? 42nd street? To it's regular SB terminal (meaning no more runs to South ferry... combine that to what they want to do w/ the M6... *smh*)

5) I don't know where they're gonna move the Q24 to.. maybe to that area where the (short turn) B12 begins at? b/c it can't be in front of the B'way Junction station w/ the Q56 & the B83....
Far as the B13 goes, that route is already a mess - where the hell would they re-route it in Ridgewood & Williamsburg?

6) Depends on which routes & the actual restructures of them... about a handful could use it, most can be left alone.. let's see what transpires.....

Knickyj, just to clarify MTA Bus, from day 1 has used NYCT loading guidelines. MTA Bus and NYCT will be sharing the lot in Long Island City starting in jan for express buses to and from Queens to layover during the middle of the day. I agree about some route restructuring and with the Q60 it has begun. They stripped all the running time to an hour and took away a lot of stops and there a lot of inspectors and road ops guys out there, MTA Bus and NYCT!

I don't second-guess that. I was just copying what the MTA Bus Company said in http://www.mta.info/mta/budget/nov2008/nov2008_vol1part2.pdf on page 54. Maybe they meant MTA Bus used different guidelines (those of the predecessor companies) than the NYCT.... I can't speak for them.

Again our responses is EXACTLY what the MTA wants. They want to pressure the city state into a bailout package.

Yes. Castle Hill Avenue is in the Parkchester neighborhood.

Here a Daily News article from Dec. 2008 about the proposed BX4 cuts.

Don't take away our Bx4 bus, riders tell Metropolitan Transit Authority
BY JAMES QUEALLY and PETE DONOHUE
DAILY NEWS WRITERS

Thursday, December 11th 2008, 8:36 PM

For some residents in neighborhoods along Westchester Ave. in the Bronx, the Bx4 bus - which is facing the ax to help plug budget gaps - is a beacon of safety.

Riders said they feel less vulnerable riding the bus than taking the elevated No. 6 subway train that runs above the avenue in the southern and eastern sections of the borough.

"The elderly are afraid to take the train," Lucy Camacho, 50, said Tuesday night while riding a bus in the Parkchester neighborhood.

The subway "is crowded and it's just safer to be out here," said Camacho, who takes the bus to shopping hubs. On the train, the conductor or motorman are several cars away, but on the bus driver is nearby, Bx4 riders said.

The bus also makes more stops, takes riders closer to their destinations, limiting the number of streets they often walk alone, riders said.

"I get out of work late and this area is kind of dangerous," said Carmen Santos, a 56-year-old secretary and bus commuter. "We need this bus."

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority raised the specter of severe service cuts if Gov. Paterson and the state Legislature don't increase subsidies.

Transit officials also say fare and toll hikes will be needed to increase revenues by 23% to help close a $2.3 billion gap in next year's operating budget.

The MTA board is required by law to have a balanced budget by Jan. 1.

It's expected next week to adopt a draconian financial plan while hoping Albany rescues riders before cuts and hikes are implemented.

Service cuts, scheduled to begin in March, include elimination of the Bx4 and 20 other local bus routes. Hikes would hit in June.

The Bx4 in 2006 carried approximately 13,600 riders weekdays, more than any other local on the chopping block, according to NYC Transit data.

c)2008 NY Daily News